Free Will... Is It a Thing?

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Free Will... Is It a Thing?

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Post by POI »

In a recent exchange, a theist made the following assertion:

"It is like when a determinist tries to tell me that I don't have freewill. I think, okay, but I know I have freewill. It is self-evident. I experience it. "

Below, I will drop a video, which sums up what this theist is denying, in a nutshell. After watching this educational video, I will ask one main question --- (and see where things flow from there):



**********************

For Debate: If it should turn out that we do not have 'libertarian free will', should the Christian God hold us humans accountable?
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Re: Free Will... Is It a Thing?

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Post by Miles »

.
For Debate: If it should turn out that we do not have 'libertarian free will', should the Christian God hold us humans accountable?
Of course not. Yet god (by way of the Bible and his preachers) does so anyway. And why? Because to deny free will robs sin and salvation of any meaning. And preachers can't have that if they're going to scare people into believing in hell so as to --> accept Jesus, so as to --> keep the collection plate moving. The concept of free will is essential to the financial survival of the church and synagogue. Sooo, no matter how much logic may come down in favor of determinism, Christians and Jews are obligated to deny it in favor of free will. In fact, most preachers and rabbis never give the Free Will Vs Determinism issue much, if any, thought because it's usually locked away in the "Don't-Even-Think-About-It" part of their brain, which is guarded by the "Think-As-You've-Been-Told" gate keeper.

BTW, Excellent video :approve: Anyone who has trouble understanding the issue or simply needs clarification should watch it.

,

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Re: Free Will... Is It a Thing?

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

I'll have a look at that later. But I've posted on this before, but we often havbe to go over old ground and why not? Something new may turn up.

Two aspect here: what actually is free will and do we have it?


If we do or do not, does that get God off the hook of being responsible for evil?

Free will is the ability to make choices. We obviously have that, so we do have free will. The 'determinist' argument seems to me toreduce to a nothing rather like the substance dualism vs. monism debate. The clue is in, like morality and consciousness, evolutionary biology. Maybe we Should make Origin of species our Holy Book. Animals do make choices, to go this way, or that; to run or to hunt for food. But they really don't think about these things; they are instinctive, even when they solve problems that humans have set up. Instinct does more for us than thinking may do. Without it, we could hardly function. So in the end, it doesn't matter whether we have some innate coin flip ability or it is down to some undetectable, instinctive factor that directs our decisions. We Do have the choice -making facility; we do have free will. Though indeed free will is not a Thing, like a magical pow'r giv'n unto us, it is a label we give to an everyday natural actions and is no more God - given than having missed our lunch had the god of missed dinners send Hunger upon us. We should beware of anthropomorphising natural things, let alone mythologising them.

That said. one of the Arq's atheist Axioms, No, 4 I think, is 'Free will does not get God off the hook'. Does it? Even setting aside the palpable stitch -up of Eden, the nature of humans is as made by God, and if He didn't know what could happen (never mind knowing what would happen) then He is working blind, like a limited potentate trying to firefight problems in His Kingdom and nothing seems to work. I need hardly spend much time on blaming it on Man or Stan, because the Lord God made them all and, yes, the clay Can dictate to the potter.

My very pretty thing and I attended pottery classes and I learned 'Clay remembers'. This means that if you mess up the pot, it cannot be unmessed and nobody is to blame but the potter, even if we smash the pot to show who is the boss. It was OUR fault. Paul of course was not a potter and didn't know that his analogy was false, not, it seems, that he would have cared anyway.

We can also skip the 'bite the bullet- God can do as He likes', which is an admission 'Ok, God is evil. So what, you'd better grovel or burn'. That is what it is, and what it is is disgusting, loathesome and detestable and thankfully not (I am sure) true. But one former opponent argued the 'God knows what He is doing'. apologetic This was effectively a claim that this was the best of all possible plans that God knew right from the start. and is Good because the end is Good. This worked fine for him as it enabled him to keep the faith (1) but of course (and he couldn't get this) it did not persuade those who doubted that God couldn't do better than that and found the old dictum 'The world makes more sense if there is no God there' and no plan, no god;we are on our own and only we are responsible was the simplest explanation that fitted all the facts. "God knows best" is merely faithbased denial.

(1) :) He pretended to be an atheist, to 'critique'atheims from within, but is was clear that he was arguing defensive theism.

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Re: Free Will... Is It a Thing?

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Post by POI »

Miles wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:16 pm .
For Debate: If it should turn out that we do not have 'libertarian free will', should the Christian God hold us humans accountable?
Of course not. Yet god (by way of the Bible and his preachers) does so anyway. And why? Because to deny free will robs sin and salvation of any meaning. And preachers can't have that if they're going to scare people into believing in hell so as to --> accept Jesus, so as to --> keep the collection plate moving. The concept of free will is essential to the financial survival of the church and synagogue. Sooo, no matter how much logic may come down in favor of determinism, Christians and Jews are obligated to deny it in favor of free will. In fact, most preachers and rabbis never give the Free Will Vs Determinism issue much, if any, thought because it's usually locked away in the "Don't-Even-Think-About-It" part of their brain, which is guarded by the "Think-As-You've-Been-Told" gate keeper.

BTW, Excellent video :approve: Anyone who has trouble understanding the issue or simply needs clarification should watch it.

,
I reckon (determinism) presents a 2-fold problem for theists...?

1) When the Bible was formulated, the authors thought that humans do have true 'free will'. Because, as the theist demonstrates in the OP, "it just really feels like we do." And when/if we come to later find out that we may not have 'free will', this demonstrates that the Bible-God was either lying, or did not know. Either way, not a good look for the claimed almighty omnibenevolent creator of everything...

2) Like you already expressed, chalk it up to another one of those topics -- for which many theists do not really ever explore too much. Maybe some of it has to do with the topic of belief preservation, or maybe it's denial, or maybe other...?

It also depends on what one defines as "free will"? A basic dictionary lookup states the following:

"the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion"

Even under the definition given above, we would still not appear to have free will, under the confines of Christianity. Why? If one is presented, as you already brought forth, with the concept of eternal torture/punishment, then the would-be believer would not have the freedom to choose god "WITHOUT the constraint of necessity or fate.". Having to follow god would be just as compulsory as knowing you must pay taxes or instead be faced with the consequences. Meaning, you have the same amount of 'free will' to opt not to follow god, as you do in opting not to pay taxes. Which means, by basic definition, neither are a free choice.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Free Will... Is It a Thing?

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Post by AquinasForGod »

[Replying to POI in post #1]

I remember watching this whole series when I was getting back into philosophy. It is pretty dumbed down but covers major concepts. I wonder if you went on to learn more about other views like compatibilism, or a thomistic view of mind.

I reject determinism because I have no reason to accept it. Sure, it works for basic interactions like magnets but that is because I am logically show how such interactions would arise using natural metaphysics, but we cannot do so for awareness.

Your brain states do not choose what cereal you eat. You soul chooses this based on some influence by the body. When a soul makes a choice, the brain states align with that choice, which is why studies have shown activity prior to the human thinking he made the choice. - https://medicalxpress.com/news/2019-03- ... of%20them.

In my view this is precisely because the soul makes a choice, the brain aligns with said choice, then the body becomes aware it thinks it made a choice.
For Debate: If it should turn out that we do not have 'libertarian free will', should the Christian God hold us humans accountable?
I don't see the point in entertaining the idea as we do have free will, and we are held accountable for our actions. I don't see the importance of what if we lacked freewill. If we lacked freewill, we were probably not caused to exist by a mind. We could just be naturalists, knowing nothing we do matters because we don't even choose it.

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Re: Free Will... Is It a Thing?

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Post by Purple Knight »

POI wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:20 pmIf it should turn out that we do not have 'libertarian free will', should the Christian God hold us humans accountable?
I don't see why not because 1) he might not have any free will either and 2) holding accountable really means punishing someone to modify their behaviour or that of others, and it still works so I don't see why not.

The bigger question is whether anyone should punish anyone if there isn't free will. Again, I don't see why not. If someone does something awful to me and ought to get away with it because he's an inanimate post, blown through me by the wind, then so am I a post and neither do I have any special accountability for what I do to him.

Punishment isn't about whether we're accountable for what we do. It's about modifying behaviour. If I bust this poor innocent fellow up, he won't do it again, precisely because he's just an inanimate post and only goes on what he expects to happen. Now if he was literally blown into me by the literal wind, I don't bust him up, because modifying his behaviour won't solve that issue, since it is not his behaviour, but the wind, that was the issue.

I defy anyone to give a punishing party special moral accountability for punishing that doesn't exist in anyone else for doing the same exact thing when it's not to punish because we're all inanimate posts.

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Re: Free Will... Is It a Thing?

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Post by POI »

AquinasForGod wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:18 pm I remember watching this whole series when I was getting back into philosophy. It is pretty dumbed down but covers major concepts. I wonder if you went on to learn more about other views like compatibilism, or a thomistic view of mind.

I reject determinism because I have no reason to accept it. Sure, it works for basic interactions like magnets but that is because I am logically show how such interactions would arise using natural metaphysics, but we cannot do so for awareness.

Your brain states do not choose what cereal you eat. You soul chooses this based on some influence by the body. When a soul makes a choice, the brain states align with that choice, which is why studies have shown activity prior to the human thinking he made the choice. - https://medicalxpress.com/news/2019-03- ... of%20them.

In my view this is precisely because the soul makes a choice, the brain aligns with said choice, then the body becomes aware it thinks it made a choice.
For Debate: If it should turn out that we do not have 'libertarian free will', should the Christian God hold us humans accountable?
I don't see the point in entertaining the idea as we do have free will, and we are held accountable for our actions. I don't see the importance of what if we lacked freewill. If we lacked freewill, we were probably not caused to exist by a mind. We could just be naturalists, knowing nothing we do matters because we don't even choose it.
1) You are right back to the rogue assertion of a 'soul'. This will likely go nowhere fast. You need to demonstrate the mere existence of a soul, before you can assert this 'soul' controls anything at all.

2) As I expressed to 'Miles", the term "free will" can mean differing things to differing people. Some will argue it is merely the ability to control your thoughts. Some will argue it is merely the ability to freely choose without duress. Other other other.... Before I address 'free will' for you, what position do you hold exactly?

3) As I also expressed to "Miles", seems the Bible writers are under the impression that we possess some form of 'libertarian free will". However, it may very well turn out that we do not? If this is the case, this makes the Bible writers wrong. Which would mean it was either not inspired by any divine agency and/or this divine agency knows not what He is talking about.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Free Will... Is It a Thing?

Post #8

Post by POI »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:42 pm I don't see why not because 1) he might not have any free will either and 2) holding accountable really means punishing someone to modify their behaviour or that of others, and it still works so I don't see why not.
But in the realm of Christianity, this may not matter. There would be no need to 'modify' your behavior. If you are sent to a place of torment, for eternity, 'modification' need not apply or matter. You are then in a permanent place, where behavior modification does no good. Unless one wants to argue that hell is temporary? And even if this were the case, the bigger question would be, does free will even exist in heaven? Seems it would not, being that no sin exists. Hence, god could just send all there anyways...?
Purple Knight wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:42 pm The bigger question is whether anyone should punish anyone if there isn't free will.
I still see this directly related to the OP debate question. For argument's sake, say if we acknowledge 'free will' does not exist, here on planet earth for humans. Okay. It would be like containing a demonstrated violent domestic dog. You either contain them and/or maybe destroy them; so they no longer run amuck...
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Free Will... Is It a Thing?

Post #9

Post by AquinasForGod »

[Replying to POI in post #7]
1) You are right back to the rogue assertion of a 'soul'. This will likely go nowhere fast. You need to demonstrate the mere existence of a soul, before you can assert this 'soul' controls anything at all.
I don't think this is the case. I believe in the soul and have justifications for it. It is not the reason I reject determinism of the mind. It is a tool, though, that helps me explain certain sets of data, like the study I linked to.

I hold to libertarian freewill, which is that any choice I make I could have chosen otherwise.

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Re: Free Will... Is It a Thing?

Post #10

Post by POI »

AquinasForGod wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:00 pm It is not the reason I reject determinism of the mind.
Why do you reject "determinism"?
AquinasForGod wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:00 pm I hold to libertarian freewill, which is that any choice I make I could have chosen otherwise.
Other than the video stating, "it just really feels like I have free choice", why do you hold to this position?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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