The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

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The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

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Post by Diogenes »

The proposition for debate is that when one takes the tales of Genesis literally, one becomes intellectually disabled, at least temporarily. Taking Genesis literally requires one to reject biology (which includes evolution) and other sciences in favor of 'magic.' Geology and radiometric dating have to be rejected since the Earth formed only about 6000 years ago, during the same week the Earth was made (in a single day).

Much of the debate in the topic of Science and Religion consists of theists who insist on a literal interpretation of Genesis rejecting basic science. Most of the resulting debates are not worth engaging in.
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

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Post by dad1 »

brunumb wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:24 pm
Anyone with a smattering of understanding would know that rapidly moving continents is a physical impossibility.


Today, of course. Notice that it was not today? We don't even know what nature was like at the time and what laws and forced existed.
Beside that, there is no mechanism by which such a thing could occur.
Says who? In other words not known to you. I could make educated guesses as to how God may have done it. Science only deals in the present physical only world. Much of Genesis involves more.

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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #622

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to dad1 in post #619]
In your mind, perhaps. In reality, the time imagined by science is belief based rather than real time that existed in reality. If someone imagines that a flood that happened say, 4500 years ago was a flood that happened 70 million years ago that does not change the time it actually occurred.
Science doesn't "imagine" time. It exists as a real thing. You're the one who pulled 70 millions years from the behind (presumably ... you never mentioned how you came up with that number), then equated it somehow to 4500 years with no explanation or justification.
Except that you have no way to know humans did live around the time of the KT layer.
That was 66 million years ago, and we do know with 100% certainty that no humans were around 66 million years ago. Is the K-T boundary (now called the K-Pg boundary ... you need to keep up) where you are getting your 70 million year number? If so, then this is all even more ridiculous than I thought. Are you trying to claim that the K-Pg iridium layer was laid down only 4500 years ago, and connected to Noah's flood? Did the iridium also come blasting down through wormholes or windows to heaven with the water?
As already mentioned earlier in this thread, it is very likely that most animals and mankind returned to dust or decayed, too fast to leave fossilized remains or bones! Your belief based misconceptions about man not being here are all sitting on faith alone. Man was here from the getgo!
Very likely? More guesswork. Modern humans appeared only during the last roughly 0.0065% of Earth's existence ... for the initial 99.9935% there were no humans. Are you now claiming that all the humans who existed before the mythical flood simply returned to dust (during a flood !!) or decayed too fast when in fact most fossils are associated with regions where water is prevelant (oceans, river beds, etc. where O2 can be cut off to delay or prevent decomposition). None of this makes any sense, but we already knew that.
All are faith based.


More proof that you don't understand how any of it works.
Wrong. Name any record that is 4500 years and show the basis foor the dating!! hint: I have been down that road before, Long story short, using Egypt for example, the dating comes down to a king list...need I say more?
You just shot yourself in the foot yet again. Read a little bit about how these lists are put together and used with artifacts from the various times (click the + sign next to Key Events):

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/02/afe.html
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #623

Post by brunumb »

dad1 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:44 pm
brunumb wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:24 pm
Anyone with a smattering of understanding would know that rapidly moving continents is a physical impossibility.


Today, of course. Notice that it was not today? We don't even know what nature was like at the time and what laws and forced existed.
Beside that, there is no mechanism by which such a thing could occur.
Says who? In other words not known to you. I could make educated guesses as to how God may have done it. Science only deals in the present physical only world. Much of Genesis involves more.
This is just getting sillier and sillier. We have an allegedly intelligent being using wormholes to transport water and dumping it through windows onto the earth. It magically shifts continents around at great speed restructuring the planet and changing nature. It then vacuums away all the excess water that would have been needed to cover the planet to the tops of the highest mountains. It has eight people build a giant wooden boat to ride out the destruction with all the animals that need to be saved. The drowned world then recovered almost as soon as the flood waters were gone. Meanwhile, every problem associated with this event is simply countered with God-magic. What is truly ridiculous is that just a little of that God-magic was all that was necessary to disappear all those pesky people that dissed off the deity in the first place. The flood scenario was totally unnecessary and simply paints this deity as a prize doofus.

Around the end of the last ice age about 12000 years ago sea levels rose dramatically and inundated many societies all around the world. There are numerous flood myths that arose out of all those catastrophes. The Noachian flood is just one of them. Check out some of the others. If reading is an issue, some are described in the interesting new series on Netflix called Ancient Apocalypse.
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #624

Post by brunumb »

dad1 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:15 pm Name any record that is 4500 years and show the basis foor the dating!! hint: I have been down that road before, Long story short, using Egypt for example, the dating comes down to a king list...need I say more?
Yes, you need to say more because a biblical genealogy list, consisting of unverified people existing for unverified years, is how creationists have homed-in on an Earth age of around only 6000 years.
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #625

Post by dad1 »

DrNoGods wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:48 pm
Science doesn't "imagine" time. It exists as a real thing.
Time exists alright. The invented time dreamed up on the sole basis of beliefs that science uses is wholly imagined. Time itself is quite real. The flood was something like a real 4500 years ago (or whatever exact number)

You're the one who pulled 70 millions years from the behind (presumably ... you never mentioned how you came up with that number)
Simple. There is a layer of sediment found worldwide, the KT layer as it used to be called. In this layer is stuff that comes from space and the inner earth (iridium) which is where the flood water also came from. Science dates that I think about 65 or 66 depending on what site we read, million years ago. I rounded up for simplicity.
, then equated it somehow to 4500 years with no explanation or justification.
I explained clearly that in real time the flood was something like that long ago. I also explained that the way science dates all things is belief based and that their dates had no reality by that number of years, and exponentially less after that time!
That was 66 million years ago, and we do know with 100% certainty that no humans were around 66 million years ago.


No you do not in any way know that. You believe that. Back up your claim and show how you think you know.
If so, then this is all even more ridiculous than I thought. Are you trying to claim that the K-Pg iridium layer was laid down only 4500 years ago
Yes. Your dates as I pointed out many times have zero reality beyond something like 4000 years ago or so. I would highly question any date science gives that is over 3800 years.

, and connected to Noah's flood?
As I said that is my current guess.
Did the iridium also come blasting down through wormholes or windows to heaven with the water?
Remember I said that is where science says it comes from. But if there was iridium deep under the earth, yes, of course the fountains of the deep erupting would have brought some up.
Very likely?
From the record in the bible yes. In fact God Himself mentioned it.

Rather than saying you will be bones or fossilized, He said this

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
It is reasonable to assume in that former different nature that was the normal way it happened!
Modern humans appeared only during the last roughly 0.0065% of Earth's existence

Totally false. You mean only then can you start to detect them! After the nature change a lot was different. One big difference was likely that men no longer returned to dust quicly when they died. They also were dying many many times faster than they used to. No wonder places like Egypt were so concerned with tombs!
Are you now claiming that all the humans who existed before the mythical flood simply returned to dust (during a flood !!)
The old nature still existed, so why would they not?? The new nature did not arrive until, probably, the days of Peleg when the world divided (continental separation included, as well as nations and languages)
or decayed too fast when in fact most fossils are associated with regions where water is prevelant (oceans, river beds, etc. where O2 can be cut off to delay or prevent decomposition).

Yes and in this new present nature that is how it works. Men also leave bones and remains. Not back then apparently! Water or not. There was only a small percent of creatures that could leave remains in the former nature. If you wonder what they are, just look at the oldest fossil record! Knowing this the tall tales of Darwin become stark raving comedy!

More proof that you don't understand how any of it works.
Name any dating method that does not rest on a belief in a same nature in the past!? They ALL do!
You just shot yourself in the foot yet again. Read a little bit about how these lists are put together and used with artifacts from the various times (click the + sign next to Key Events):
If you have some point from a link, post it rather than posting a link to read. If you think you can support king list dating, go ahead! Been there done that. You will not succeed if you try.

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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #626

Post by dad1 »

brunumb wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:07 pm
dad1 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:15 pm Name any record that is 4500 years and show the basis for the dating!! hint: I have been down that road before, Long story short, using Egypt for example, the dating comes down to a king list...need I say more?
Yes, you need to say more because a biblical genealogy list, consisting of unverified people existing for unverified years, is how creationists have homed-in on an Earth age of around only 6000 years.
So, being unable to defend your dating claims and king lists, you try to ridicule the bible. Ho hum

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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #627

Post by JoeyKnothead »

I pologize for the wall of text, but the troll in me won't be denied :)
dad1 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:08 pm The claims that science cannot support are it's own origin stories.
So we dismiss those stories and seek to determine if your own stories are the truth.
dad1 wrote: Also your denials of Genesis.
A challenge to a claim is not a denial of it. I simply seek to determine if the claim/s you present are true and factual.
dad1 wrote: There is no science support for any claim, for example that there were no portals in the sky that were opened and closed.
One can't prove a negative.

Really, this first bit here has you displaying an utter ignorane of what it means to debate.
dad1 wrote: So do not pretend...
I object to the scandalous accusation that I'm not being forthright and honest.
dad1 wrote: ...that it is Genesis that has no science to support it. There is evidence all around that we can interpret as support for the flood, and cities and characters recorded in Genesis.
So I seek to determine if your interpretation of said evidence can stand to scrutiny.
dad1 wrote: Three of the great religions on earth all accept that Abraham (who was a contemporary with Noah in his young years, tradition says) lived. We even know where he is buried and his wife.
Where have you shown the bible is an accurate account of this claim?
dad1 wrote:
JK wrote: But go ahead now and show us all how we can confirm you speak truth regarding...

1. The flood
I look at the KT layer as a possible flood layer.
Possibility is not actuality.
dad1 wrote: Sediment worldwide that has traces of stuff in it that come from space and the inner earth!
Meteorites, and, well, earth explains that without any godly invocations.
dad1 wrote: I look at Yucatan as a possible...
Again, possibility is not actuality.
dad1 wrote: ...remnant of a fountain of the deep that erupted (violent ejecta and impact from down to up).
Have you been able to locate this "fountain of the deep", or are you still stuck in possiblity mode?
dad1 wrote: I also look at the complete lack of evidence in science for rejecting any of the key elements of the flood year.
What specific year, and what specific material do you refer to here?

Please offer a more detail timeline beyond "fast" for this separation of continents.
dad1 wrote: The main truth on a science forum that I speak is that science doesn't know.
That "science doesn't know" says nothing about the validity of your claims.

Does science "know" anything that might support your claims?
dad1 wrote: Millions have met the Spirit it was done by.
Please present these "millions" for cross examination.
dad1 wrote: Prophesies in the bible confirm beyond doubt that God had to have written them.
The bible was written after the events it seeks to predict.
dad1 wrote: Billions of human test tubes have tested Him and say that it was a success!
Please present these talking test tubes for cross examination.
dad1 wrote: Much of the bible is known history, so the parts that are not known about the future or past can be trusted.
You haven't even established it as an accurate record of the past, so saying it can tell about the future is a bit off.
dad1 wrote: If you ignore...
I object to any implication I'd ignore what I considered evidence.
dad1 wrote: ...all evidence of God then one has only belief as to where the universe came from. Science has only belief on the issue of universe origin.
And the theist has faith.
dad1 wrote:
JK, continuing to present challenges to claims wrote: 4a. The windows of
4b. heaven
4c. Were opened
4d. by a spirit,
Hey, ever seen a man able to do that!?
I've never seen a man open a window he couldn't even show existed. Nor have I seen a spirit that can't be shown to exist to open a window that can't be shown to exist.
dad1 wrote: Science has no clue whether they were opened of not, or even what they might be. So you are in no position to confirm or deny.
It's your claim. It's you who's in a position to present some means by which we may confirm you speak truth.

Quit picking on science for it's failures, and start presenting something to lessen your own.
dad1 wrote: 5a. The door of the ark
5b. was closed by a spirit.

That is what is recorded.
It's been recorded that a cow jumped over the moon.

All you're doing is quoting the book making the claims to support the claims that book you quote claims.
dad1 wrote: Science did not exist yet, so you tell us what authority you have in a science forum to deny the record?
A... challenge... to... a... claim... is... not... a... denial... of... that... claim.
dad1 wrote: You see, if you had cameras back then on trees, and paparazzi monitoring the ark day and night, you might be able to speak with some knowledge. As it is no possible evidence aside from the record exits either way. That means it is undeniable.
:facepalm:

I reckon we'd all do well to watch for cows plummeting back to earth.
dad1 wrote:
JK wrote: I caution the observer against thinking you're this dumb.
Again, no science is offered, only the predictable allusion and pretense that you have some science hidden somewhere that you 'could' post if you wanted. Sorry, that act expired long ago.
As did your using the bible to support its own claims.
dad1 wrote: When posters claim the windows of heaven were not there the onus is on them to show they speak the truth.
As I've made no such claim, I'm under no burden here. Take this issue up with whomever did.
dad1 wrote: Pretending...
I object to the libelous accusation that I'm not being honest in my endeavors here.
dad1 wrote: ...that unless modern physical only science has hard evidence for something, then it never existed is not a sane proposition. That is about like saying 'unless my religion OKs something, it is not real..la la la la la'
As you quote your religious text in an effort to show that religious text presents claims that're real.
dad1 wrote: The OP claims that Genesis is a falsehood that causes ill effects, basically. Did you miss that?
No. And with your posts we have some data to suggest it's accurate.
dad1 wrote: Posters have denied Genesis here six ways from Sunday offering no science at all as support.
Take it up with them.
dad1 wrote: It was also pointed out that the bible is supported in many ways in historical accuracy, and history that was prophesy but that is now all a done deal.
No, you claim such, while having failed, quite miserably, to show you speak truth in this regard.
dad1 wrote: It was also pointed out that God was tested in untold millions of lived repeatedly, and passed.
I must have missed the part where you presented these untold millions for cross examination.
dad1 wrote: I will also point out that the claims of creation and Genesis, windows of heaven, etc are bible claims, not claims of posters here.
As I point out that not one poster here's been able to put any truth to those bible claims.
dad1 wrote: When the claims were written down there was no science.
That's worthy of a Ric Romero lifetime achievement award.
dad1 wrote: There is no science that refutes it.
Maybe, but there's none that supports it.
dad1 wrote: Science cannot even address the key elements of creation and the flood, and spirits.
That's because science relies on the rigorous collecting of facts and unemotional interpretation thereof.
dad1 wrote: Don't blame me that science cannot support any denial of things like the windows of heaven having opened, or confirm them.
And don't blame the observer when they pass your claims over and use the Shinola instead.

This whole "you can't prove it ain't" is among the most ignorant forms of debate I've ever encountered.
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #628

Post by brunumb »

dad1 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:57 am
brunumb wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:07 pm
dad1 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:15 pm Name any record that is 4500 years and show the basis for the dating!! hint: I have been down that road before, Long story short, using Egypt for example, the dating comes down to a king list...need I say more?
Yes, you need to say more because a biblical genealogy list, consisting of unverified people existing for unverified years, is how creationists have homed-in on an Earth age of around only 6000 years.
So, being unable to defend your dating claims and king lists, you try to ridicule the bible. Ho hum
No. You actually ridiculed yourself. Try reading the exchange with some understanding. I'm guessing the "ho hum" referred to you wiping some egg off your face.
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #629

Post by dad1 »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:19 am So we dismiss those stories and seek to determine if your own stories are the truth.
Another way to put that is whhen it comes to belief, we can choose. Is that so bad?
A challenge to a claim is not a denial of it. I simply seek to determine if the claim/s you present are true and factual.
What way have you to determine if windows of heaven were opened in the flood? Ha
One can't prove a negative.
One call call truth a negative if one wanted. However science cannot confirm or deny the windows of heaven. Since you can't wave them away with science what have you left to wave them away exactly?
I object to the scandalous accusation that I'm not being forthright and honest.
I think anyone that claims that the windows of heaven never opened is talking through their hat. So let's be honest and admit it.
So I seek to determine if your interpretation of said evidence can stand to scrutiny.
What sort of scrutiny since science is unable to be used?
Where have you shown the bible is an accurate account of this claim?
If Joseph's tomb is there in Israel, what would you suggest, it was some long running con job?
Possibility is not actuality.
I am just being humble and allowing that I could be wrong. Science should try that.
Meteorites, and, well, earth explains that without any godly invocations.
That is the name of the game! Explain all evidence without God. Great definition of modern science at least the origin branches. But you know, if many branches on a tree are dead and rotten, that says a lot about the tree itself also.
Again, possibility is not actuality.
Nor is it not a strong educated guess.
Have you been able to locate this "fountain of the deep", or are you still stuck in possiblity mode?
There was not one fountain but many. The fountains of the deep were opened. Now once a fountain or conduit to the inner earth gets closed, what would it look like? Have you some reason to claim it could not look like a crater?
What specific year, and what specific material do you refer to here?
In the bible the people were in the ark a little over a year. That year.
Please offer a more detail timeline beyond "fast" for this separation of continents.
Well, not hundreds of millions of years. Not millions of years. Not even thousands of years. Walt Brown (for different reasons) envisioned it to have taken hours if I recall. I don't really care. If it took a few years, that would be fine. A few months. A few weeks or days. We do not know.
That "science doesn't know" says nothing about the validity of your claims.
On a science forum it does! If you have no science for claims like there was no windows of heaven or flood etc what do you have?? God validated His word in ways other than science.
Does science "know" anything that might support your claims?
We have mentioned a few things, such a worldwide sediment layer with iridium. However science uses beliefs to interpret evidence, so it will always interpret using it's belief system. The evidence supports Genesis. The interpretation of belief based science only supports it's little self.
Please present these "millions" for cross examination.
How would you propose to cross examine believers of all ages? Keep it real.
The bible was written after the events it seeks to predict.
A claim you could never support.

Let's look at Jesus prophesying that the temple would be destroyed, not a stone upon another left. That happened after He died and rose and went back to heaven. Hardly after the fact.
Please present these talking test tubes for cross examination.
I am supposed to have hundreds of millions of living and even more dead come marching to your living room for 'interrogation'?
You haven't even established it as an accurate record of the past, so saying it can tell about the future is a bit off.
It is established. Prophets also prophesied about things in their time so people would know that the future stuff also was true. But this is not a bible thread.
I object to any implication I'd ignore what I considered evidence.
What you may consider may be considered by others to be ignoring what you refuse to consider.
And the theist has faith.
Great. So? At least believers know they are supposed to have faith, it is a good thing! In science you are supposed to have more.
I've never seen a man open a window he couldn't even show existed.
So does that mean no one ever opened a window until you were born??
Nor have I seen a spirit that can't be shown to exist to open a window that can't be shown to exist.
So all spirits must report to you even if what they did was thousands of years ago? 'Hey spirits, no door or window opening or anything else till you report to me'

It's your claim. It's you who's in a position to present some means by which we may confirm you speak truth.
It is God's record not my claim. If you have some way to check events in the far past, get back to us.
Quit picking on science for it's failures, and start presenting something to lessen your own.
Yoour refusal to believe Scripture does not mean it is a failure. On the contrary.
It's been recorded that a cow jumped over the moon.
No. That is a poem. We need to learn the difference between historical detailed records and children's rhymes. I have to tell you this?
All you're doing is quoting the book making the claims to support the claims that book you quote claims.
No. I am looking at the facts and evidence and what is known and carefully weighing things in an honest and intelligent way.
A... challenge... to... a... claim... is... not... a... denial... of... that... claim.
A challenge based on nothing is more of a doubt than a challenge.
As did your using the bible to support its own claims.
I actually use the experience and tests and observations of a good part of mankind. I also use the fossil record, the plate movements, radioactive isotopes etc etc etc etc.
As I've made no such claim, I'm under no burden here. Take this issue up with whomever did.
Great, so whatever poster that was, listen up here.
I object to the libelous accusation that I'm not being honest in my endeavors here.
Well, if you honestly have any evidence there were no windows of heaven or other things in Genesis, what are you waiting for?
As you quote your religious text in an effort to show that religious text presents claims that're real.
On a science forum the concern should be dealing with the issue and what the text says, not that it is some other religion than that of so called science.
No. And with your posts we have some data to suggest it's accurate.
Great so you did not miss that the OP was what I said.
dad1 wrote: Posters have denied Genesis here six ways from Sunday offering no science at all as support.
Take it up with them.
Hard to remember who is who because it is like talking to a hall full of JWs who all more or less use the same set of ideas and beliefs.
No, you claim such, while having failed, quite miserably, to show you speak truth in this regard.
Being a science forum I don't want to spent too much time on the bible. But there were hundreds of prophesies Jesus fulfilled. Such as being born in Bethlehem to a virgin. That was no failure but a startling success.
As I point out that not one poster here's been able to put any truth to those bible claims.
Or not.
Maybe, but there's none that supports it.
That is a whole lot of nothing for science then!
That's because science relies on the rigorous collecting of facts and unemotional interpretation thereof.
Science has no facts and has collected squat about windows of heaven. Really.
And don't blame the observer when they pass your claims over and use the Shinola instead.
They can use the toilet paper label for beliefs if they like. What they cannot do is deny that origin sciences are belief based.
This whole "you can't prove it ain't" is among the most ignorant forms of debate I've ever encountered.
Let's not forget you can't prove it is either! Ha

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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #630

Post by dad1 »

brunumb wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:06 am
dad1 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:57 am
brunumb wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:07 pm
dad1 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:15 pm Name any record that is 4500 years and show the basis for the dating!! hint: I have been down that road before, Long story short, using Egypt for example, the dating comes down to a king list...need I say more?
Yes, you need to say more because a biblical genealogy list, consisting of unverified people existing for unverified years, is how creationists have homed-in on an Earth age of around only 6000 years.
So, being unable to defend your dating claims and king lists, you try to ridicule the bible. Ho hum
No. You actually ridiculed yourself. Try reading the exchange with some understanding. I'm guessing the "ho hum" referred to you wiping some egg off your face.
You do not accept the bible or the scholarly attempts to get some idea of when the patriarchs lived. If it is in the bible it is verified! Jesus rose from the dead and He verified it was true. If you mean that poor little science cannot begin to be able to verify or deny Genesis makes it unverified...good luck with that!
That just means that science has no capacity to verify it's way out of a paper bag on these things.

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