Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

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Rational Atheist
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Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #1

Post by Rational Atheist »

Here is a simple, yet powerful, argument against the idea that we 'freely' choose our actions.

1. Our thoughts determine our choices.

2. We do not freely choose our thoughts.

3. Therefore, our choices cannot be free.

I don't think anyone would object to premise 1, especially those who believe in free will, since by definition, a "free" choice, if it could exist, requires a person to consciously make it, which by definition involves thought. Premise 2 may be controversial to some, but with a simple thought experiment, it can be proven to be true. If a person could freely choose their thoughts, then they would have to be able to consciously choose what they were going to think before actually thinking it. In other words, there would have to be a time before a person thinks a thought that that thought was consciously chosen by a person, which literally entails the necessity of being able to think a thought before one thinks it. This, of course, is a logical contradiction. Ergo, free will does not exist.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #321

Post by OneWay »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:46 am
OneWay wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:46 am
JK wrote: Meh. I can decide to think of me something else when it happens,
No you can't, that is just an incontrollable reaction to a thought
due to the preceding thought put in your mind by another source other than you.

Like blinking your eyes.
I'd caution folks against thinking this is some kinda deep, life changing knowledge before they fetch off to join the nunnery.

Further caution is warranted regarding this "another source", as well. Unless one can show whom or what that source is, it's fair to say normal brainial processes are at play.
You can't make this up, it came from another source other than you.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #322

Post by William »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #320]

The question which still hasn't been answered, is whether the brain can be considered as an 'outside source' because this tends to be what is said re 'the brain did it'.

If we do not create our own thoughts, then where do thoughts derive?
If we do create our own thoughts, why say it is the brain?

At this point, the brain acts as a medium between what we are internally and what the world is externally.

If we simply say that "we are the brain" then the whole lot should be seen as in internal event we are experiencing and that the external we think we are experiencing also becomes part of that process - the brain is experiencing "something", which it then interprets for the self it created, in order to make sense of whatever it is it is experiencing.

Why did the brain create a thing called 'itself' which is plainly not in any way, anything other than a ghost...a concept which does not really exist, but for some reason has to exist as a concept in order for the brain to believe that it is experiencing anything...so it is "whatever" is being experienced which propels a brain to create a ghost-version of itself [personality] - in its own 'image' - due to interpreting signals inside a certain spectrum of frequencies [spacetime/light and sound et al].

Even so, it is clear that however brains interpret 'something', it can be said that the 'something' is outside of the brains own sense of somethingness, and yet it is part of that outside somethingness at the same time - not separate from it...

that, connects with this;
viewtopic.php?p=1102457#p1102457

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #323

Post by Purple Knight »

William wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:23 pmIf we do not create our own thoughts, then where do thoughts derive?
If we do create our own thoughts, why say it is the brain?
I tend to agree with OneWay. We see a tree, our processor interprets "tree" and that's a really passive process. We see a white crow and another, and another, and another, and come to believe crows are white whereas someone living in a universe with black crows will think they are black. It just happens.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #324

Post by JoeyKnothead »

OneWay wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:08 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:46 am
OneWay wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:46 am
JK wrote: Meh. I can decide to think of me something else when it happens,
No you can't, that is just an incontrollable reaction to a thought
due to the preceding thought put in your mind by another source other than you.

Like blinking your eyes.
I'd caution folks against thinking this is some kinda deep, life changing knowledge before they fetch off to join the nunnery.

Further caution is warranted regarding this "another source", as well. Unless one can show whom or what that source is, it's fair to say normal brainial processes are at play.
You can't make this up, it came from another source other than you.
That does nothing to negate the validity of my comments.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #325

Post by OneWay »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:21 am
OneWay wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:08 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:46 am
OneWay wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:46 am
JK wrote: Meh. I can decide to think of me something else when it happens,
No you can't, that is just an incontrollable reaction to a thought
due to the preceding thought put in your mind by another source other than you.

Like blinking your eyes.
I'd caution folks against thinking this is some kinda deep, life changing knowledge before they fetch off to join the nunnery.

Further caution is warranted regarding this "another source", as well. Unless one can show whom or what that source is, it's fair to say normal brainial processes are at play.
You can't make this up, it came from another source other than you.
That does nothing to negate the validity of my comments.
One has to not negate any of your comments. There never was any validity to it.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #326

Post by JoeyKnothead »

OneWay wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:46 am [quotte=JoeyKnothead post_id=1102551 time=1670134874 user_id=3753]
OneWay wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:08 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:46 am
OneWay wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:46 am
JK wrote: Meh. I can decide to think of me something else when it happens,
No you can't, that is just an incontrollable reaction to a thought
due to the preceding thought put in your mind by another source other than you.

Like blinking your eyes.
I'd caution folks against thinking this is some kinda deep, life changing knowledge before they fetch off to join the nunnery.

Further caution is warranted regarding this "another source", as well. Unless one can show whom or what that source is, it's fair to say normal brainial processes are at play.
You can't make this up, it came from another source other than you.
That does nothing to negate the validity of my comments.
One has to not negate any of your comments. There never was any validity to it.
[/quote]
I'm fine with the observer drawing their own conclusions on that.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #327

Post by JoeyKnothead »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:21 am
OneWay wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:46 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:21 am
OneWay wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:08 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:46 am
OneWay wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:46 am
JK wrote: Meh. I can decide to think of me something else when it happens,
No you can't, that is just an incontrollable reaction to a thought
due to the preceding thought put in your mind by another source other than you.

Like blinking your eyes.
I'd caution folks against thinking this is some kinda deep, life changing knowledge before they fetch off to join the nunnery.

Further caution is warranted regarding this "another source", as well. Unless one can show whom or what that source is, it's fair to say normal brainial processes are at play.
You can't make this up, it came from another source other than you.
That does nothing to negate the validity of my comments.
One has to not negate any of your comments. There never was any validity to it.
I'm fine with the observer drawing their own conclusions on that.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #328

Post by OneWay »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:23 am
I'm fine with the observer drawing their own conclusions on that.
OneWay wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:46 am You are responsible for it.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #329

Post by Shem Yoshi »

Rational Atheist wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:18 pm Here is a simple, yet powerful, argument against the idea that we 'freely' choose our actions.

1. Our thoughts determine our choices.

2. We do not freely choose our thoughts.

3. Therefore, our choices cannot be free.

I don't think anyone would object to premise 1, especially those who believe in free will, since by definition, a "free" choice, if it could exist, requires a person to consciously make it, which by definition involves thought. Premise 2 may be controversial to some, but with a simple thought experiment, it can be proven to be true. If a person could freely choose their thoughts, then they would have to be able to consciously choose what they were going to think before actually thinking it. In other words, there would have to be a time before a person thinks a thought that that thought was consciously chosen by a person, which literally entails the necessity of being able to think a thought before one thinks it. This, of course, is a logical contradiction. Ergo, free will does not exist.
Paul famously struggled with the idea of sin in Romans 7, writing "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." As if Paul, a wretched sinner, was not in control of what he does. Romans 8 and 9 then deal with predestination and Gods will, opposed to the will of man.

"Who can resist the will of God?" Paul posed as a question. And concluded that God (a potter) has the right to make us (a lump of clay) however he wants. If God wanted to make us into glory or dishonor, what is that to you? Paul asked.

Paul's biggest sicking point is that the law is fulfilled by faith...

Do we choose? Or does God? What does it matter? If we choose let us live by faith, if God chooses we ought to live by faith.
“Them that die'll be the lucky ones.”

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #330

Post by DJT_47 »

Thinking and acting upon thoughts are 2 distinct things. You've only covered thought and not action. Although thoughts may be derived from other than ourselves we have the option to do or not do.

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