Follow the law, obey masters, honour parents...

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Purple Knight
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Follow the law, obey masters, honour parents...

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

"Honour thy mother and thy father."

"Slaves, obey your masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them exactly as you would serve Christ."

"Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands as you do to the Lord."

"Obey the laws."

Question for debate: What exactly do you do in case of conflict with God's laws?

I'm aware of the apologetic that this submission is relative and it does make sense that there has to be a hierarchy to these things and God's laws come first especially if someone is telling you to commit a mortal sin. But what's on the table at the moment are the particulars of how to behave in case of a conflict. As nothing is giving wives or slaves the right to run away, and all these situations are essentially the same situation, I'm guessing you just stand there, say, "Nope." and deal with the earthly consequences, even if that's being arrested.

I do have to admit that a government will have a hard time arresting everyone if they do this. If you've got enough people it's very Ghandi-ish and likely to garner sympathy.

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Re: Follow the law, obey masters, honour parents...

Post #2

Post by theophile »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:38 pm "Honour thy mother and thy father."

"Slaves, obey your masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them exactly as you would serve Christ."

"Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands as you do to the Lord."

"Obey the laws."

Question for debate: What exactly do you do in case of conflict with God's laws?

I'm aware of the apologetic that this submission is relative and it does make sense that there has to be a hierarchy to these things and God's laws come first especially if someone is telling you to commit a mortal sin. But what's on the table at the moment are the particulars of how to behave in case of a conflict. As nothing is giving wives or slaves the right to run away, and all these situations are essentially the same situation, I'm guessing you just stand there, say, "Nope." and deal with the earthly consequences, even if that's being arrested.

I do have to admit that a government will have a hard time arresting everyone if they do this. If you've got enough people it's very Ghandi-ish and likely to garner sympathy.
Is there a conflict? I say this because there are some very peculiar qualifiers here. Like for slaves, they are to 'serve their masters exactly as they would Christ'. Or in the case of wives, they are to submit to their husbands 'as they do to the lord'.

I take this to mean that if the service being requested is not in the service of Christ (and presumably the law in virtue of that fact), then slaves and wives ought not to provide it. So no conflict whatsoever that I see, but only a heightened mindfulness for what it means to serve the lord.

I also think it is helpful to recognize that Christianity is a slave morality. Christ calls us to be slaves, and says that the greatest disciples are those who serve the lowest among us, which presumably includes slave masters and husbands, right? :) But the further point (to tie back to what I said above), is that Christ calls us to be slaves while at the same time transforming what slavery is. It's not mindless obedience, forced labor, or anything like that, but rather willing service to Christ. Which means, serving whatever it is that Christ serves, which I would further argue is to serve life in this world. (To serve Christ is to serve life, and so any request contrary to that -- i.e., any request that would destroy, oppress, prevent, or diminish any kind of life whatsoever -- is to be rejected.)

Folks always like to slam the bible for condoning slavery, but why would it condemn that which is probably most proximate to what it is trying to achieve? Similarly for a dutiful wife or respectful child... Such ones are already a good part of the way there. Hence the encouragement that such verses provide to stay the course.

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Re: Follow the law, obey masters, honour parents...

Post #3

Post by Purple Knight »

theophile wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:18 pmIs there a conflict?
Not necessarily, no. The question is about the particulars of how to behave when your master, husband, parents, or government tell you to do something, let's just say, unchristian. By conflict, I simply meant the master wants you to do something the Bible does not want you to do.

There are a few options I see.

1) Desert, disown, otherwise run away. Cut ties.

2) Violent resistance. Say you won't do the thing and defend yourself from consequences, with force if need be.

3) Nonviolent resistance. Refuse to do the thing and accept consequences.

4) Deception. Make it seem as though you did the thing, but do not actually do it.

I see 2 as the least likely, because Christianity is pretty nonviolent, sometimes to the point of pure pacifism. 1, 3, and 4 all have some sort of Biblical support as I see it.

Support for #1:
Luke 12:52
Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
This is the weakest support as I see it. Reason being, Jesus still refers to it as a household. So you may well be expected to still sit at that table. Dividing the household still could mean, the people who disagree go away.

Support for #3:
Luke: 6:28
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone takes your cloak, do not withhold your tunic as well. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what is yours, do not demand it back.
Overt pacifism. Don't fight back. Don't exercise your rights to person or property.

Support for #4:
This support lies in one interpretation of the story of the barren fig tree, which has the servant deceive his mater to follow a law in Leviticus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_o ... n_fig_tree
The owner is an absentee landlord, only visiting his vineyard once a year. The law regarding first fruits, Leviticus 19:23-25, forbids eating fruit from a tree in its first three years. The vinedresser has disposed of the fruit, either by plucking it at an early stage or dropping it for compost, to prevent anyone from inadvertently eating the forbidden fruit. The story suggests that the vinedresser is an observant Jew and the owner is a pagan, unfamiliar with the laws of first fruits. Now that the tree is entering its productive period, the vinedresser has saved it from the ax, without letting the master know what happened to the earlier fruit. However, the owner has yet another surprise coming, because in the fourth year, all the fruit is offered to the Lord. Luke may have picked up a Jewish tale of a Jewish laborer outsmarting his pagan master. In the end, the faithful prevail.
If this interpretation is true, it sanctions deception of one's master if it's to follow God's law. Because this is only one interpretation of this story, and if I'm not mistaken not the common one which makes the parable simply about patience, I call this the second-weakest support.

I honestly don't think 2 has any support, though someone may find some.

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Re: Follow the law, obey masters, honour parents...

Post #4

Post by 2timothy316 »

Acts 5:29 "But Peter and the other apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than men."

When any of man's rules conflict with God's laws or principles then God's laws must be followed.

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Re: Follow the law, obey masters, honour parents...

Post #5

Post by Purple Knight »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:18 pm Acts 5:29 "But Peter and the other apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than men."

When any of man's rules conflict with God's laws or principles then God's laws must be followed.
Correct, so how do you do that? How do you execute the "disobey men" part?

1. Run way
2. Resist
3. Disobey men and willingly accept consequences from men
4. Deceive

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Re: Follow the law, obey masters, honour parents...

Post #6

Post by 2timothy316 »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:08 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:18 pm Acts 5:29 "But Peter and the other apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than men."

When any of man's rules conflict with God's laws or principles then God's laws must be followed.
Correct, so how do you do that? How do you execute the "disobey men" part?

1. Run way
2. Resist
3. Disobey men and willingly accept consequences from men
4. Deceive
5. Surrender
6. Plead your case before courts.
7. Do anything but that will not break God's laws so as to keep a clean conscience before Jehovah so as to bring honor to God's name.

A good example is when Hitler wanted to conscript an army. For few this was unacceptable, to shoot people, would break God's laws. When they refused, they were put to death. Sounds bad right? But lets think about the future of Hitler and the future of the ones that kept God's law not to murder. The Bible says there will be a resurrection. Who will more likely live again?

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Re: Follow the law, obey masters, honour parents...

Post #7

Post by Purple Knight »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:41 pm 5. Surrender
6. Plead your case before courts.
7. Do anything but that will not break God's laws so as to keep a clean conscience before Jehovah so as to bring honor to God's name.

A good example is when Hitler wanted to conscript an army. For few this was unacceptable, to shoot people, would break God's laws. When they refused, they were put to death. Sounds bad right? But lets think about the future of Hitler and the future of the ones that kept God's law not to murder. The Bible says there will be a resurrection. Who will more likely live again?
Then it's 4. You disobey if you have to disobey but you accept the consequences and don't fight anybody. I think that's a perfectly fair answer. +1 to you.

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Re: Follow the law, obey masters, honour parents...

Post #8

Post by 2timothy316 »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:00 am
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:41 pm 5. Surrender
6. Plead your case before courts.
7. Do anything but that will not break God's laws so as to keep a clean conscience before Jehovah so as to bring honor to God's name.

A good example is when Hitler wanted to conscript an army. For few this was unacceptable, to shoot people, would break God's laws. When they refused, they were put to death. Sounds bad right? But lets think about the future of Hitler and the future of the ones that kept God's law not to murder. The Bible says there will be a resurrection. Who will more likely live again?
Then it's 4. You disobey if you have to disobey but you accept the consequences and don't fight anybody. I think that's a perfectly fair answer. +1 to you.
This normally backfires on the powers that be when they spend their resources to imprison people that follow God's laws. Take Russia for example in the 20th century. When Jehovah's Witnesses where banned there were only a few thousand. When they refused to join the army, stop their preaching and teaching they were sent to labor camps or forced to move to places like Siberia for decades. When the USSR fell in the late 80s early 90s there were more than 160,000 Jehovah Witnesses. Their numbers actually grew! So what happened? Well, by moving the JWs to new areas they continued to preach and teach which gave them more people to preach to, thus rather than squashing their work, they actually spread it further. Also, when people hear of a people being moved or imprisoned because of who they are, people have a natural curiosity as to why it's happening. So then they inquire what JWs believe and a few become Christians themselves.

Following God's laws will always reap better benefits in the long run.

"But after you have suffered a little while, the God of all undeserved kindness, who called you to his everlasting glory in union with Christ, will himself finish your training. He will make you firm, he will make you strong, he will firmly ground you." 1 Peter 5:10

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Re: Follow the law, obey masters, honour parents...

Post #9

Post by Purple Knight »

2timothy316 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:17 amTheir numbers actually grew! So what happened?
Well, they got good PR if the press merely reported what happened. 90% of people aren't absolute refuse bins and have empathy for those being unilaterally bullied.

I respect JWs and Mormons a lot. Not only do you fellows actually know your own lore, but you've been historically bullied. When I read what happened to the Mormons in Utah, how they did not allow them to marry multiple women, and how the Mormons take that on the chin as opposed to other groups who will squeal and whine like stuck pigs, demanding this and that and right rights rights piled up to the moon, I respect the squealing demanding group less, and the honourable group more.

When people talk about the right to marry who they want (including two or more women) as a fundamental extension of religious protections, I roll my eyes and wonder if they have any plans to make right what the American government did to the Mormons as part of that package, or if they're just reactively greasing a squeaky wheel without having thought about the issue in the slightest measure.

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Re: Follow the law, obey masters, honour parents...

Post #10

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:38 pm I'm aware of the apologetic that this submission is relative and it does make sense that there has to be a hierarchy to these things and God's laws come first especially if someone is telling you to commit a mortal sin. But what's on the table at the moment are the particulars of how to behave in case of a conflict. ...
As we adhere to the biblical notion of relative submission, Jehovahs Witnesses will absolutely refuse to perform any action that violates his or her bible trained conscience. This could be anything from performing an unclean sexual act to not accurately filling in one's tax return. The situations are numerous but the principle simple, we do not do something God has commanded against and will refuse to stop something God mandates.

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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