Question for Debate: Can evil point to God?
My argument that evil points to God. You can read it here in the original formating - https://www.freelymeditate.com/single-p ... proves-god
POI wanted me to present this argument, so I did. He also wanted me to show that atheists would be unreasonable to reject it, which I do not do as that is silly. However, you can see in the argument that the consequences of rejecting evil points to God are dire.
Typically, we see arguments against God from evil, but I think evil can actually be evidence for God rather than against. Evil makes more sense under the theistic view than under naturalism.
We have this strong inclination that certain acts are utterly wrong, such as rape, murder, child molestation. This inclination is so strong that it just seems objectively true that raping a child is wrong. To pretend this is subjective doesn't feel right.
If it is objective, then we need an explanation for how it is an objective truth that raping children is wrong. Theism has a good explanation for this. God is the good and ground for all good and evil is the absence of that good. Evil then is the absence of the good comes in degrees, and raping children is so far from the good that we all sense how wrong it is.
But under naturalism, you will have to argue for evolution like Cosmic Skeptic (Alex O'Connor does). Evolution he says gives us a "feeling" that human flourishing is good. That is the ground for why we feel it is wrong, but he admits that it cannot be a grounding for it actually being wrong.
So under naturalism, it is not a fact. It is not a true statement that raping children is wrong. It is a feeling. It is subjective. And even he admits that he hates that. But that is a consequence of the naturalist's view. Raping children is not objectively wrong.
Raping children is wrong is not True.
That is quite the consequence of naturalism. Okay, but there are atheistic views that are not natural views that might account for morals. This would be similar to platonic forms, but in this case, morals are just a thing that exists in the world. They just do. No explanation as to why they exist. They just do.
So perhaps if you cannot swallow the consequence of naturalism that raping children is not in fact wrong but just your subjective feelings, you can take solace in the idea that morals just exist without explanation. You can retain your atheism and believe rape is actually wrong.
But if you believe in God, then God grounds objective morals. He grounds all morality. And there is an explanation for why morals exist.
If evil did not exist in the world, I couldn't make the moral argument for God, so evil points to God, unless of course, you can live with yourself by choosing one of the alternative views.
Here is the argument without explanations.
1 We have a strong inclination that evil is in the world, such as how utterly wrong raping children is.
2 In order for us to believe this inclination is false will take a lot of evidence.
3 The theists' explanation shows our inclination is correct. Raping children is wrong.
4 The theists' explanation grounds objective morals.
5 There are other views.
6 Naturalism doesn't ground objective morals.
7 Under naturalism, rape cannot be shown to be wrong. It is a subjective view.
8 Naturalism doesn't satisfy our inclination that rape is in fact wrong. (from 1, 6, 7)
9 There is an atheistic view of objective morals.
10 The atheistic view says that objective morals just exist in the world as platonic forms do. It offers no explanation.
11 A view without an explanation is not as good of evidence as a view with an explanation.
12 The atheistic view doesn't satisfy our inclination.
13 The theist's view satisfies our strong inclination that evil is in the world,
14 The other views do not.
15 Therefore, If we wish to feel justified in our strong inclination that evil exists like rape is actually wrong, we should accept the theists' view, unless there is another view that better justifies our inclination.
Evil Points to God
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AquinasForGod
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Re: Evil Points to God
Post #32I have no idea and I would urge you not to speculate on the unknown. If we are being honest, the word barely has meaning anylonger as 'god' now days can refer to just about anything. I have even seen Christians argue that a sports team or a car can be a god.
More ignostic by the day...
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
Re: Evil Points to God
Post #33I am always honest.Clownboat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:52 pmI have no idea and I would urge you not to speculate on the unknown. If we are being honest, the word barely has meaning anylonger as 'god' now days can refer to just about anything. I have even seen Christians argue that a sports team or a car can be a god.
More ignostic by the day...
To be dishonest is to dishonor yourself, and in your case also your parents.
I am not a Christian. They are too evil for me and they do not know God or the truth.
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Clownboat
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Re: Evil Points to God
Post #34I don't care if you are a Christian and I care not what you would find dishonorable. You do not enter my thoughts outside of debate. Your opinions on Christians are worthless and I don't see why you would take the time to try to vilify them here.OneWay wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:16 pmI am always honest.Clownboat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:52 pmI have no idea and I would urge you not to speculate on the unknown. If we are being honest, the word barely has meaning anylonger as 'god' now days can refer to just about anything. I have even seen Christians argue that a sports team or a car can be a god.
More ignostic by the day...
To be dishonest is to dishonor yourself, and in your case also your parents.
I am not a Christian. They are too evil for me and they do not know God or the truth.
I reject your un-evidenced and empty claim that Christians are evil (as a whole). I do currently accept that they can't show that they know a god or any truth though. Exactly like yourself in regards to your claims I observe.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
Re: Evil Points to God
Post #35Be it as it may.Clownboat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:43 pmI don't care if you are a Christian and I care not what you would find dishonorable. You do not enter my thoughts outside of debate. Your opinions on Christians are worthless and I don't see why you would take the time to try to vilify them here.OneWay wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:16 pmI am always honest.Clownboat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:52 pmI have no idea and I would urge you not to speculate on the unknown. If we are being honest, the word barely has meaning anylonger as 'god' now days can refer to just about anything. I have even seen Christians argue that a sports team or a car can be a god.
More ignostic by the day...
To be dishonest is to dishonor yourself, and in your case also your parents.
I am not a Christian. They are too evil for me and they do not know God or the truth.
I reject your un-evidenced and empty claim that Christians are evil (as a whole). I do currently accept that they can't show that they know a god or any truth though. Exactly like yourself in regards to your claims I observe.
