.
I recently heard a discussion where it was claimed that a well know former Christian pastor turned atheist told a story of the healing of a mute person which he facilitated while he was a pastor. I won't mention his name because I can't verify that he actually made that claim. However, let's skip that issue a assume a genuine miracle occurred where a person who was mute due to physical issues, was healed. Let's include that the healer prayed in Jesus' name or something to that effect.
How can we connect a genuine healing to the Christian God or any gods for that matter?
Is it enough that the healer invoked Jesus' name or directed the prayer to a specific god/gods?
Tcg
Connecting Miracles to God?
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Connecting Miracles to God?
Post #1To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Re: Connecting Miracles to God?
Post #11I guess that brings up the issue of how one establishes that a genuine miracle has actually occurred. What criteria do we use and how must they be applied? Surely the first steps would involve eliminating all possibility of a natural event or an event that involved some sort of human intervention. Anecdotes don't amount to much and that is all we seem to get.
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Re: Connecting Miracles to God?
Post #12This comes down to our worldview. And if we cannot demonstrate which worldview is correct, then we cannot know.
But we can argue for a worldview, such as monotheism and only God has the power to go against the laws of physics because he causes the laws of physics.
In this case, any miracle can only be performed by God.
But we can argue for a worldview, such as monotheism and only God has the power to go against the laws of physics because he causes the laws of physics.
In this case, any miracle can only be performed by God.
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Re: Connecting Miracles to God?
Post #13Well, I said it was tricky. It is so very tempting to some to play the 'you can't disprove it'card for unverifiable claims. And so many that seemed to be circumstantially verified by unimpeachable witnesses and documents on the spot, turn out to be rather dubious. We have to suspend belief until mistakes have been ruled out.brunumb wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:28 pmI guess that brings up the issue of how one establishes that a genuine miracle has actually occurred. What criteria do we use and how must they be applied? Surely the first steps would involve eliminating all possibility of a natural event or an event that involved some sort of human intervention. Anecdotes don't amount to much and that is all we seem to get.
We already know which worldview is correct.Logic and (scientifically validated) evidence is more credible than faithclaims and inverted logic, not to mention fiddling or misrepresentation of evidence. I know this is creationism not miracles, but apart from the mucky polemics of'you could fit all the transitionals into a small car' and 'Lucy's bones could fit in a shoebox', it was claimed that Lucy was an ape because the spine entered the skull from the back, not from below. But that is simply false. Let's bite the bullet here, True Believers will lie or at least repeat them for what they believe is true on Faith.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:13 pm This comes down to our worldview. And if we cannot demonstrate which worldview is correct, then we cannot know.
But we can argue for a worldview, such as monotheism and only God has the power to go against the laws of physics because he causes the laws of physics.
In this case, any miracle can only be performed by God.
It is a golden prize for them, to wangle God into credibility any way they can, ...I could give the sorry list from 'who made everything, then?' to 'Jesus helped me hit a home run'. You cannot allow these people even a half point or (another fallacy - the 'one shot win') they reckon that one half -argument even fora non -specific cosmic intelligence, validates the leap of faith to the Bible.
Apart from that, for real unexplained events, from NDEs to cancer remission, apart from giving god - claimants credibility they will screw all the juice out of, it gets in the way of investigation. We simply have to leave the unexplained in the pending tray until we understand it. So far, nothing has supported a god so there is really no valid reason to credit puzzling cures to a miracle, even if someone was praying at the time.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER on Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Connecting Miracles to God?
Post #14[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #13]
Except logic is not a worldview, so I saw no reason to read the rest.
Logic is a tool we can use to develop a worldview, but thus far, no worldview has been shown to be true.
Except logic is not a worldview, so I saw no reason to read the rest.
Logic is a tool we can use to develop a worldview, but thus far, no worldview has been shown to be true.
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Re: Connecting Miracles to God?
Post #15Kind of assuming facts not in evidence and then weaving them into a circular argument.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:13 pm This comes down to our worldview. And if we cannot demonstrate which worldview is correct, then we cannot know.
But we can argue for a worldview, such as monotheism and only God has the power to go against the laws of physics because he causes the laws of physics.
In this case, any miracle can only be performed by God.
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Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Connecting Miracles to God?
Post #16Show the form of a circular argument then fit what I said into it.brunumb wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:48 pmKind of assuming facts not in evidence and then weaving them into a circular argument.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:13 pm This comes down to our worldview. And if we cannot demonstrate which worldview is correct, then we cannot know.
But we can argue for a worldview, such as monotheism and only God has the power to go against the laws of physics because he causes the laws of physics.
In this case, any miracle can only be performed by God.
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Re: Connecting Miracles to God?
Post #17I see you want to quibble about the validity of my circularity bit, so ok, maybe not technically correct even if it feels right. The rest still assumes facts not in evidence and as such is worthless in my book.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:52 pmShow the form of a circular argument then fit what I said into it.brunumb wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:48 pmKind of assuming facts not in evidence and then weaving them into a circular argument.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:13 pm This comes down to our worldview. And if we cannot demonstrate which worldview is correct, then we cannot know.
But we can argue for a worldview, such as monotheism and only God has the power to go against the laws of physics because he causes the laws of physics.
In this case, any miracle can only be performed by God.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Connecting Miracles to God?
Post #18The problem there is establishing his existence and, well, the rest of that stuff.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:13 pm This comes down to our worldview. And if we cannot demonstrate which worldview is correct, then we cannot know.
But we can argue for a worldview, such as monotheism and only God has the power to go against the laws of physics because he causes the laws of physics.
In this case, any miracle can only be performed by God.
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