Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
The Nice Centurion
Sage
Posts: 930
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:47 pm
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #1

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Perhaps the most quantitative appearing of any resurrected demigod ever!
I told you] that [Jesus] appeared to Cephas [Peter]; then to the twelve; then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom most remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one malformed, he appeared to me too, for I am the least of the apostles, who is not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
It is the "favorite child" of resurrected Jesus apologists!

Most probable explanation according to Richard Carrier:

Paul cannot mean Jesus hung around with his followers for days or weeks. Paul’s use of “all at once” for only one single event, and his entire sequence (Cephas, and then each of the Twelve, and then the brethren, and then James, and then each of the Apostles, and then Paul), entails these were isolated, momentary visions. They came, and went. Paul therefore cannot mean a lingering Jesus who stuck around and dined with them for days on end. That simply isn’t what he is describing here. At all. And yet this fact strongly supports explanations from the cognitive science of religious experience: these were visions; not a reanimated body. A reanimated body would stick around.

. . .

The most probable thing that could have happened is that all the brethren in the congregation at that time, riling themselves up into an ecstasy on Pentecost owing to its prophetic and religious significance, and the exciting and hope-fulfilling claims of the Twelve, had a Fatima-style mass experience, in an altered state hallucinating amorphous lights above them, and feeling the Presence of the Lord, and then concluded this was an instance of Jesus having appeared to them, now in his celestial and supernatural form. Probably no auditory element was present, no verbal revelation, not only because none is recorded (not even in Acts), but that would have made this into an apostolic election. And Paul clearly does not think it was. These brethren did not become, and thus are not described as, apostles. The apostles appear in the next verse.

Scientifically, what happened would be like that Fatima scenario: each individual had his own private hallucination of a miraculous light, each one different from the next, but because it was amorphous and only communicable in the abstract (“I see lights above us!”) there was no way to “compare notes” (even if they were inclined to) so as to discover they were seeing different things (and they likely wouldn’t conclude so anyway: most believers in the Fatima case didn’t). And they all had this experience at once because all were exciting themselves into the same altered state on the same religious occasion, just as with the Fatima events. The well-studied scientific facts of anchoring and memory contamination and the power of suggestion and need of belonging (and thus the need to have seen or felt the same things as one’s comrades, or at least claim to have) would ensure the resulting story became more and more homogeneous over time.

Just as it could have come to be told that the Virgin Mary “appeared” to hundreds of witnesses at Fatima, so it could have come to be told that Jesus “appeared” to hundreds of witnesses at Pentecost. There is no evidence against this being what happened. And it has the highest prior probability, given all the background knowledge we have about how these claims commonly originate and come to be told. Corpses don’t rise. But masses of people do claim divine beings have appeared to them—when all that really happened was a subjective ecstatic hallucination of lights in the sky. It thus doesn’t matter if any Corinthians could “check” Paul’s claim by finding any of these people. If they even did (I thoroughly cover that problem in Chs. 7 and 13 of Not the Impossible Faith), the witnesses would simply report they saw Jesus as a fabulous light, and so decisively felt his presence that they could not be mistaken, and the usual psychosomatic miracles of “tongues” and “healing” proved it. Which is what the Corinthians would already know. And back then, who could prove it wasn’t real?

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14255
But I find that the heaviest argument about this one time mass appearance is that so many people cannot verify a popping up and vanishing again person. Not even if Jesus appeared in the collosseum arena with his 500 fans rounded up around him as audience!

Am I right that all this disqualifies Jesus alleged appearance to 50ü brethren?
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

User avatar
The Nice Centurion
Sage
Posts: 930
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:47 pm
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #31

Post by The Nice Centurion »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:07 am .

*Fat fingers on the thanks tip*

*Venom giveth, Venom taketh away*
The Nice Centurion wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:16 am Carrier doesnt declare himself winner. He says Craig used the clock against him.
Used the clock against him?

Each debater had the same amount of time to make their case.

Craig is just better at time management, while Carrier is poor at it.

Nothing more, nothing less.
If a Craigist can quote Craig how he won accordimg to his own words we should hear it.
But since no one made that claim, there is nothing to hear.
From debating christians i got allergic to the :" I could bring the evidence, but . . (and then silence) . . . !" argument!
I get allergic to the "I do not believe in the Bible, but yet I still concern myself with Biblical doctrine, according to what the Bible says".
You do not have a quote
So all your points are moot
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

User avatar
We_Are_VENOM
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1632
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:33 am
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #32

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:22 am So you have no quote!

I knew it! You have no quote at all! Christian evidence. Never there when someone calls for it.
Never said I had a quote.
Says you!
Says the debate I watched.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

User avatar
The Nice Centurion
Sage
Posts: 930
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:47 pm
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #33

Post by The Nice Centurion »

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #32]
Why in the world would you watch a debate without a quote ?
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

User avatar
The Nice Centurion
Sage
Posts: 930
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:47 pm
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #34

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Found a resembling thread:

viewtopic.php?t=32696
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

User avatar
AquinasForGod
Sage
Posts: 972
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:29 am
Location: USA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 71 times

Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #35

Post by AquinasForGod »

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #1]

I think there is a mistake being made here. It seems you think he appeared to 500 at once as in he just remained still and they all looked up at him in the sky or something for a few minutes. I don't think so. I would like to look at the verses.

1 Cor 15: 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

So remember that Jesus appeared to people for 40 days after he rose.

Acts 1: 1 In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. 3 He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.

During, these 40 days he did many things and appeared to many people. So when Paul says he appeared to Cephas, then the twelve, then... much time could have passed between these events, and Jesus could have spent much time within each event, such as time talking to Peter, or time talking to the 12, and so on.

I do not get the same idea that Jesus just appeared for like 20 seconds to 500 people. Rather, he walked among them and talked with them and moved about them. Perhaps he started in the sky, then descended and moved about every one of them so that everyone saw him up close. He could have spent days doing that.

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 8151
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 954 times
Been thanked: 3546 times

Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #36

Post by TRANSPONDER »

AquinasForGod wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:51 pm [Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #1]

I think there is a mistake being made here. It seems you think he appeared to 500 at once as in he just remained still and they all looked up at him in the sky or something for a few minutes. I don't think so. I would like to look at the verses.

1 Cor 15: 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

So remember that Jesus appeared to people for 40 days after he rose.

Acts 1: 1 In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. 3 He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.

During, these 40 days he did many things and appeared to many people. So when Paul says he appeared to Cephas, then the twelve, then... much time could have passed between these events, and Jesus could have spent much time within each event, such as time talking to Peter, or time talking to the 12, and so on.

I do not get the same idea that Jesus just appeared for like 20 seconds to 500 people. Rather, he walked among them and talked with them and moved about them. Perhaps he started in the sky, then descended and moved about every one of them so that everyone saw him up close. He could have spent days doing that.
Well, there's the question. Aside that the Paul quote says all at once not over 40 days, the idea is that Jesus spent 40 days expounding things to the disciples for over a moth directly after the resurrection, and we are expected to believe that the disciples had expanded to 500 by that time. But you have been very selective in how you read the material. Look at Acts 1. It refers to the apostles he had chosen (the 12) who sit through the slideshow and presentation 'Jesus in the OT 'scriptures' and at the end, they go to see Jesus ascend into a cloud. An angel hanging about there addresses them as 'Men of Galilee'. So these are not 498 converts. So where, A4G, mate, do Paul's 500 all at one time come from?

What we have here is the author of Acts (undoubtedly the author of Luke) having access to Paul's letters and seeing a need for a completion of the gospel using Paul's skimpy biographical details. He never read Matthew, so never knew that Matthew had the disciples (as instructed) leaving for Galilee to see Jesus atop a mountain there. He did know that the angel had told them to go there (Mark 16.7) as Jesus had told them (Mark 14.28) Also in Matthew 26.33. Well, since I credit that Mark is reflecting the original Synoptic version, Luke must have had this also. But now he knew it was wrong and had to be corrected. He does this by dropping Jesus (Gethsemane) saying he will go before them to Galilee and altering the angel's message to what Jesus had told them in Galilee. Because Luke knows from Paul's letters that the disciples had not gone to Galilee, but had founded the Church in Jerusalem.

Luke perhaps is misunderstanding the import of Paul writings, yet it seems utterly clea rto me that Luke has altered the gospels, and we can see the reason why. That he saw the passage in Paul about the disciples seeing Jesus is evidenced by Luke having Jesus appear to Simon, (Luke 24.34) and this has to be added material, not in Matthew,of course. So, while i can hardly believe that you will deny or dismiss this evidence for what Luke is doing here, I reckon we can dismiss Luke as validating Paul, but rather raising doubts about where these 500 came from or who they were.

We can probably guess that there was a lot of members of the Jesus party within mere months of Jesus being executed. They were there in Rome for Paul to write to, and there in Jerusalem to see the risen Jesus in their heads, rather than in the solid body. We may also glean that Paul wanted to talk to the Romans as thinking in terms of OT Judaism, not Gentile Christianity, because Paul had to argue to them that the mantle had passed to the Gentiles. Indeed, Paul has to argue stuff that he coudl simply appeal to 'Jesus said', if Jesus had ever said it. No, this is why I recon the gospels are Pauline Christian in origin and Jesus and his followers were Jewish believers and Gentile Christianity was invented by Paul

Sure, I believe that Peter, then the 12 and this Jewish community of Messianists has a vision that Jesus had risen and would come again. But this was nothing to do with the gospel resurrections, invented and contradictory, and 1.Cor. is actually no support for the gospel resurrections.

User avatar
POI
Prodigy
Posts: 3480
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
Has thanked: 1612 times
Been thanked: 1081 times

Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #37

Post by POI »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 6:08 am Luke perhaps is misunderstanding the import of Paul writings, yet it seems utterly clear to me that Luke has altered the gospels, and we can see the reason why. That he saw the passage in Paul about the disciples seeing Jesus is evidenced by Luke having Jesus appear to Simon, (Luke 24.34) and this has to be added material, not in Matthew,of course. So, while i can hardly believe that you will deny or dismiss this evidence for what Luke is doing here, I reckon we can dismiss Luke as validating Paul, but rather raising doubts about where these 500 came from or who they were.
14 action packed minutes :)

In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

User avatar
AquinasForGod
Sage
Posts: 972
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:29 am
Location: USA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 71 times

Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #38

Post by AquinasForGod »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #36]
So where, A4G, mate, do Paul's 500 all at one time come from?
I don't see a mystery here. Jesus had crowds of people trying to follow him around, people that believed. People that witnessed different miracles.
Luke perhaps is misunderstanding the import of Paul writings, yet it seems utterly clea rto me that Luke has altered the gospels, and we can see the reason why.
That is not clear to me. Luke was like a reporter. He went around interviewing people to get an understanding from eye witnesses what they saw and heard. Those details that matched other writings, he would not have to rewrite himself.

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 8151
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 954 times
Been thanked: 3546 times

Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #39

Post by TRANSPONDER »

AquinasForGod wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:58 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #36]
So where, A4G, mate, do Paul's 500 all at one time come from?
I don't see a mystery here. Jesus had crowds of people trying to follow him around, people that believed. People that witnessed different miracles.
Luke perhaps is misunderstanding the import of Paul writings, yet it seems utterly clea rto me that Luke has altered the gospels, and we can see the reason why.
That is not clear to me. Luke was like a reporter. He went around interviewing people to get an understanding from eye witnesses what they saw and heard. Those details that matched other writings, he would not have to rewrite himself.
I think you are reading too much into Luke's claim. What he has done is to take the synoptic gospel (unamended without Mark/Matthew material) added Josephus and Paul's letters and Q document and that is all the sources I find, not going around the apostles with a notebook. His fiddling and invention is also demonstrable. Sorry, no, your apologetic doesn't do it for me.

Sure, Luke tries ti bring the Gospel in line with Cor.I but that only shows up his fiddling. And also that the resurrection accounts do not fit with Paul's visions of Jesus in the head.

neverknewyou
Apprentice
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:27 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #40

Post by neverknewyou »

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #1]

"Just as it could have come to be told that the Virgin Mary “appeared” to hundreds of witnesses at Fatima, so it could have come to be told that Jesus “appeared” to hundreds of witnesses at Pentecost."

I'm fine with this explanation for what Paul claims. Mass sightings of Mary throughout the centuries don't seem to be all that uncommon.

Post Reply