Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[JoeyKnothead]

...
Either way ya wanna slice this, it's still requiring me to act.

Sorry, I disagree with that. If you act (play), it is not useful in any way. If you think you have sin and think you have done something wrong, you voluntarily say you are sorry then the forgiveness that is offered can be useful.

Now you're shifting from forgiveness being "freely given" to being "useful".
...

If I would give you a new car as a gift, but you would reject it and not use it, it would not be useful for you. It still would be a free gift, just not useful. Same is with forgiveness, it is a free gift, but if you don't accept it, it is not useful.

Now we've gone from forgiveness being "freely given" once you ask for it, to forgiveness being useful, to God'll give ya a car if you'll just let go of this whole problem of having to first ask for "freely given" forgiveness. I suppose God'll also pay the taxes on that free car.

[brunumb]

...
Either way ya wanna slice this, it's still requiring me to act.

Sorry, I disagree with that. If you act (play), it is not useful in any way. If you think you have sin and think you have done something wrong, you voluntarily say you are sorry then the forgiveness that is offered can be useful.

Now you're shifting from forgiveness being "freely given" to being "useful".
...

If I would give you a new car as a gift, but you would reject it and not use it, it would not be useful for you. It still would be a free gift, just not useful. Same is with forgiveness, it is a free gift, but if you don't accept it, it is not useful.

If one gives a gift freely then one doesn't impose any conditions at all. If I gave you a car then I would consider it yours to do with as you please. Keep it, use it, sell it, whatever. No fine print somewhere that says it's a gift but if you don't believe in me it's not yours.

[1213]

Why do you think I lie and have sinful sex dreams? Are you projecting yourself to others here?

Do you remember all your dreams? NO. You do not.

"Sex dreams made up about 8 percent of all reported dreams — over 3,500 — in a study by Antonio Zadra, PhD, of the University of Montreal.Jul 27, 2021" <-- I guess they only studied deviants

Maybe you just do not remember any of them. BUT THE BIGGER POINT, is that you cannot control WHAT you dream. Some of your dreams would fall into the realm of 'sin'. And a righteous person would NOT "sin", right?

I think I can control what I do in my dreams. And if I would not remember my dreams, how could you have any knowledge of that happened in the dreams that even I don't remember? How can you believe in dreams that you have not seen?

I don't change my answer, because I think it is still what the Bible tells. Eternal live is a gift for righteous. If I am not righteous, then I don't get the gift. And it is ok to me. If I am not righteous, then it is better if I don't get the gift.

Okay, don't change your answer. However, you are still cherry picking. Here are some simple conclusions we can now both answer together:

1. What happens to stillborn babies? They are not saved because they cannot achieve righteousness. Why? They are born in sin and had no chance to redeem themselves. And if you wish to argue they get some sort of a free pass, then being deemed RIGHTEOUS is not THE answer for how one is to achieve salvation.
2. I guess NO Catholics are going to Heaven. They believe they must continue to confess their sins, until they die. And you already stated a righteous person will not sin. Thus, are Catholics mistaken?
3. "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" --- Mark 16:16. Belief and baptism alone = salvation here. Why can I not just cherry pick this verse alone? This verse gives me THE instructions too. And none of this instruction requires being righteous. Under your definition of righteousness, you will not sin. Which means you will somehow never have a sex dream again?.?.?.?.?

I'll stop here. You have enough on your plate with these (3) findings alone....

1. I think it is possible that even a baby can be counted righteous. What do you think born in sin means?
2. If person has sin, it is good to confess and ask forgiveness. But this makes me to think, do they have right definition for sin, if they continue in sin and why do they continue in sin, what does it mean.
3. It is a good verse, but I don't think you would understand it correctly, if you would not know what else Jesus said. With that only you would not know what you are expected to believe. If person believes Jesus, he believes what Jesus says and therefore lives as Jesus said, I think he can be counted righteous because of that.

Why do you think sex dream is a sin? Is sex always sin in your opinion, why?

[1213]

...it's a gift but if you don't believe in me it's not yours.

Have I said so?

[brunumb]

...it's a gift but if you don't believe in me it's not yours.

Have I said so?

I see you just ignore the main point. Inconvenient?

If one gives a gift freely then one doesn't impose any conditions at all. If I gave you a car then I would consider it yours to do with as you please. Keep it, use it, sell it, whatever.

[POI]

I think I can control what I do in my dreams. And if I would not remember my dreams, how could you have any knowledge of that happened in the dreams that even I don't remember? How can you believe in dreams that you have not seen?

Well, here's a news flash. You can't control your dreams. Just like the ones evaluated can't control their dreams. --- For which roughly 8% of such dreams were/are sexual in nature. Further, upon a normal sleep session, you have many dreams. And you will not remember many of them. Heck, I hardly remember any of my dreams. Does this mean I don't dream very much?

1. I think it is possible that even a baby can be counted righteous. What do you think born in sin means?
2. If person has sin, it is good to confess and ask forgiveness. But this makes me to think, do they have right definition for sin, if they continue in sin and why do they continue in sin, what does it mean.
3. It is a good verse, but I don't think you would understand it correctly, if you would not know what else Jesus said. With that only you would not know what you are expected to believe. If person believes Jesus, he believes what Jesus says and therefore lives as Jesus said, I think he can be counted righteous because of that.

Why do you think sex dream is a sin? Is sex always sin in your opinion, why?

1. How exactly can a stillborn be counted as righteous?
2. A righteous person would not 'sin', right? However, a 'sin' would be any deemed transgression against God. As long as you are alive, you will continue to commit 'sin'. This is why you must continue to confess your sins. Unless you think the Catholics are wrong?
3. The verse states "whoever does (this and that) WILL BE saved. Not, "you could possibly be saved if you also".... No exception is granted in that verse. Many Christians feel just as substantiated in their answer, via <option B)>, as you do in your answer. God seems to be satisfied in being the author of confusion.

You will need to pick another option. Why? All humans will "sin" until they die. Otherwise, you are like Jesus --- (without "sin"). You cannot become equal to Jesus. Only Jesus is 'righteous'. Thus, I ask you a question... If you feel you are righteous, does this mean you will no longer need to confess any sin? Because if you do still need to confess, what exactly does "righteous" mean anyways? What value, does calling one 'righteous', really have?

And to answer your bottom question... "Impure thoughts" -- (awake or asleep), about strangers, or anyone outside your spouse, would be deemed a transgression against God, right? The Muslims know this all too well. Hence, the reason their women are dressed from head to toe, in a black sheet. Now, if these men could just stop their sex dreams too

[JoeyKnothead]

...it's a gift but if you don't believe in me it's not yours.

Have I said so?

I see you just ignore the main point. Inconvenient?

If one gives a gift freely then one doesn't impose any conditions at all. If I gave you a car then I would consider it yours to do with as you please. Keep it, use it, sell it, whatever.

It's a bit amusing. We've gone from forgiveness being freely given, to useful, to Oprah is God.

And not once an admittance that "freely given" should require nothing on the part of the recipient.

[1213]

...Heck, I hardly remember any of my dreams. Does this mean I don't dream very much?

Why should we believe in existence of something that we have no evidence for?

1. How exactly can a stillborn be counted as righteous?
2. A righteous person would not 'sin', right? However, a 'sin' would be any deemed transgression against God. As long as you are alive, you will continue to commit 'sin'. This is why you must continue to confess your sins. Unless you think the Catholics are wrong?
3. The verse states "whoever does (this and that) WILL BE saved. Not, "you could possibly be saved if you also".... No exception is granted in that verse. Many Christians feel just as substantiated in their answer, via <option B)>, as you do in your answer. God seems to be satisfied in being the author of confusion.

1. I have understood righteousness means essentially wisdom of the just, right understanding. Person may have that, even if he has not yet done anything. And maybe God can see righteousness even in the actions of a small baby.

2. Yes, by what the Bible tells, righteous doesn't sin. But I don't think righteous means person is perfect. I think it is possible that even righteous person makes mistakes. For example because:

For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises up again; But the wicked are overthrown by calamity.
Pro. 24:16

3. But, the words mean something in the Bible. For example, the word "believe", do you think it is means as long as you believe something, it is fine, or is there perhaps something specific that you should believe?

...All humans will "sin" until they die. Otherwise, you are like Jesus --- (without "sin"). You cannot become equal to Jesus. Only Jesus is 'righteous'. Thus, I ask you a question... If you feel you are righteous, does this mean you will no longer need to confess any sin? Because if you do still need to confess, what exactly does "righteous" mean anyways? What value, does calling one 'righteous', really have?

If no one is righteous, then by what the Bible tells, no one will get eternal life. It is very simple. But maybe you have a wrong definition for sin. I think it would be best to have the definition that Bible has for sin, or righteous.

Here is one example of a person who was counted righteous in the Bible:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Luke 18:10-14

The tax collector understood he had done something wrong and regretted it. That showed he is righteous; he has the wisdom of the just. He understood what is good and right and didn't want to do what is wrong. And this is why I think, sin is what sinner does and righteousness is what righteous does. It may be that righteous makes mistakes, but the difference is in that he doesn't reject God and therefore it is just a mistake that is forgiven, not sin.

By what the Bible tells, Righteous lives, because he is loyal to God. And if he rejects God, then he becomes unrighteous. That is why I think sin is to reject God. And when you reject God, then your actions also become sin, because they are done without God.

But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:38

And this is why perhaps Catholic people should think have they really rejected God. If not, perhaps they should just say they are sorry, if they have done something wrong, as Jesus taught his disciples to pray:

Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.
Matt. 6:12

And to answer your bottom question... "Impure thoughts" -- (awake or asleep), about strangers, or anyone outside your spouse, would be deemed a transgression against God, right? The Muslims know this all too well. Hence, the reason their women are dressed from head to toe, in a black sheet. Now, if these men could just stop their sex dreams too

I can agree that if you do adultery in your mind intentionally, it is wrong. But the idea of adultery doesn't necessary mean that you have done it in your mind. For example, if I see a murder in TV, it doesn't make me a murderer, even though the idea of murder was in my mind because of that. Only if I would want to murder someone and willingly would do it in my mind, it could be counted as a bad thing. Same is with adultery. If you get that thought in your mind, but you don't want to do that, the thought itself is not wrong. If you would want to do the wrong thing, that is the problem. And I think this works also in dreams, even if you get some bad idea in your dream, you can choose not to do it, if you think it is wrong. And if you do a bad thing in a dream willingly, I think it is because you want to do so, and that I think is the problem.

What Muslims do with covering their women may be good in that it can help not to get bad ideas. But the bad idea itself is not the problem, if one wants to do the bad thing, that is the problem. And that problem can exist even if the women are covered. It can be polite from women not to lead men into temptation, but I think men should not be so weak minded that they can't control themselves.

[1213]

If one gives a gift freely then one doesn't impose any conditions at all. If I gave you a car then I would consider it yours to do with as you please. Keep it, use it, sell it, whatever.

That is true. But, if you don't use it in anyway, it is not useful.

[brunumb]

If one gives a gift freely then one doesn't impose any conditions at all. If I gave you a car then I would consider it yours to do with as you please. Keep it, use it, sell it, whatever.

That is true. But, if you don't use it in anyway, it is not useful.

Irrelevant. A gift freely given is unconditional. It seems you are trying to get God/Jesus off the hook. It isn't working.