This subtopic takes as a given that all three major Abrahamic religions developed laws to control or subjugate women to a different or lesser status. That is taken as a given for the purpose of this thread. Anyone who doubts the Abrahamic religions have, historically, fashioned rules for men to control women is advised to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and ... _religions and start their own, separate topic for discussion, rather than argue that here.
The question for debate in this topic is "Why would God make rules that allow for the subjugation and control of women by men? The current example of such subjugation in its extreme form deals with the morality police in Iran, punishing and allegedly even murdering women for not 'properly' covering their hair with the hijab.
https://www.npr.org/2022/09/21/11242372 ... ity-police
But historically similar rules have been endorsed by both Jewish and Christian scriptures as well.
Why Would God Make Rules Subjugating Women?
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Why Would God Make Rules Subjugating Women?
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Re: Why Would God Make Rules Subjugating Women?
Post #31So where does it say rape them, let alone that it says God says to rape them or that rape is good or acceptable. I imagine you must be doing some interpolation here. Explain.POI wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:54 amYou might still dismiss. I gave you a couple verses, in another thread, for which you have ignored, thus far ---> viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40068&start=160AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:38 pmWithout a verse, I will dismiss your claims.POI wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:28 pmBy your given definition, God sanctioned this as well. God apparently ordered one tribe to take another conquered tribe's women as sex slaves.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:02 pm Subjugate: bring under domination or control, especially by conquest.
"Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.".
"But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."
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Re: Why Would God Make Rules Subjugating Women?
Post #32Diogenes wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:42 pm This subtopic takes as a given that all three major Abrahamic religions developed laws to control or subjugate women to a different or lesser status. That is taken as a given for the purpose of this thread. Anyone who doubts the Abrahamic religions have, historically, fashioned rules for men to control women is advised to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and ... _religions and start their own, separate topic for discussion, rather than argue that here.
The question for debate in this topic is "Why would God make rules that allow for the subjugation and control of women by men?
There are definitely rules in the Bible that are harmful to women, and I question why God would allow those. The only issue I have with your point is that not all forms of subjugation are wrong or harmful to women. When a woman is pregnant, the man should take the lead by being the provider. If someone breaks into the house, the man should take the lead by protecting his family. I understand that male dominance tends to be seen in a negative/abusive light, but we should be careful to not throw out the good (and perhaps even natural) with the bad.
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Re: Why Would God Make Rules Subjugating Women?
Post #33Not being sure is part of the problem. When God offers no reason (or a reason that seems closer to myth than fact) for the differences in roles, then people will fill in the blanks. I won't go as far as saying that a lack of reason for the gender roles automatically disproves your God, but it is a point of weakness , esp. since men suppressing women is a big issue afterall. It's easy for people to just assume that there's discrimination going on when there's no good reason offered. I'm willing to remain agnostic.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:29 pmBut how could that be my point when I said women can teach intellectual subjects? Why God chooses men as priests, I am not sure, but it is not because women cannot teach intellectual topics, because they can.AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:45 pm I'm open to accepting that not all gender roles are discriminatory if there is a good reason for those roles. For instance, I can agree that keeping women out of men's sports is a good idea because of the physical differences. Some offer reasons that can be disproven, like someone saying women shouldn't be teachers because they are intellectually inferior to men. If your reasons fall into the latter example, then your point is obviously invalid.
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Re: Why Would God Make Rules Subjugating Women?
Post #34Would you change if you knew the truth or stay the same?AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:13 amNot being sure is part of the problem. When God offers no reason (or a reason that seems closer to myth than fact) for the differences in roles, then people will fill in the blanks. I won't go as far as saying that a lack of reason for the gender roles automatically disproves your God, but it is a point of weakness , esp. since men suppressing women is a big issue afterall. It's easy for people to just assume that there's discrimination going on when there's no good reason offered. I'm willing to remain agnostic.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:29 pmBut how could that be my point when I said women can teach intellectual subjects? Why God chooses men as priests, I am not sure, but it is not because women cannot teach intellectual topics, because they can.AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:45 pm I'm open to accepting that not all gender roles are discriminatory if there is a good reason for those roles. For instance, I can agree that keeping women out of men's sports is a good idea because of the physical differences. Some offer reasons that can be disproven, like someone saying women shouldn't be teachers because they are intellectually inferior to men. If your reasons fall into the latter example, then your point is obviously invalid.
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Re: Why Would God Make Rules Subjugating Women?
Post #35Providing and protecting are not subjugating; they are almost the opposite. Members of patriarchal societies often use as an excuse for placing women in a lesser role or subjugating them, that the roles are reciprocal and somehow equal. Both men and women should and can protect and provide for each other. Certainly many men have promoted this idea that the man "rules over the woman" because he is the protector and divider, but this is just a man made justification. The question is, Why would an all knowing and universal GOD who can see the future and understand all cultures decree that man should always rule over the woman simply because of gender. I have yet to hear any reason or justification for that.AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:54 pm There are definitely rules in the Bible that are harmful to women, and I question why God would allow those. The only issue I have with your point is that not all forms of subjugation are wrong or harmful to women. When a woman is pregnant, the man should take the lead by being the provider. If someone breaks into the house, the man should take the lead by protecting his family. I understand that male dominance tends to be seen in a negative/abusive light, but we should be careful to not throw out the good (and perhaps even natural) with the bad.
All we've seen so far is reasons men have promoted the idea. We've been shown no reason why a perfect God would reason that a competent, strong, and brilliant woman should be subservient to a doltish man just because he has a penis.
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Re: Why Would God Make Rules Subjugating Women?
Post #36I would change under two conditions:OneWay wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:15 amWould you change if you knew the truth or stay the same?AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:13 am Not being sure is part of the problem. When God offers no reason (or a reason that seems closer to myth than fact) for the differences in roles, then people will fill in the blanks. I won't go as far as saying that a lack of reason for the gender roles automatically disproves your God, but it is a point of weakness , esp. since men suppressing women is a big issue afterall. It's easy for people to just assume that there's discrimination going on when there's no good reason offered. I'm willing to remain agnostic.
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Re: Why Would God Make Rules Subjugating Women?
Post #37It is not my objective to change you or anyone on the forum.AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:30 amI would change under two conditions:OneWay wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:15 amWould you change if you knew the truth or stay the same?AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:13 am Not being sure is part of the problem. When God offers no reason (or a reason that seems closer to myth than fact) for the differences in roles, then people will fill in the blanks. I won't go as far as saying that a lack of reason for the gender roles automatically disproves your God, but it is a point of weakness , esp. since men suppressing women is a big issue afterall. It's easy for people to just assume that there's discrimination going on when there's no good reason offered. I'm willing to remain agnostic.
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Re: Why Would God Make Rules Subjugating Women?
Post #38Women can be preists and pastors though. It is only (unless I'm mistaken) the Catholic church that doesn't allow such a thing.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:33 pm But it is not subjugation because being a priest is voluntary. Women just cannot volunteer for it. As to why this is the case, I do not know but I imagine it is because God knows all things and thus he knows what works the best for humans end. If male being priests works better than women also being priests, then it is so. It is not that men are better. It is that we humans work toward our good when we have male priests better than if we had female priests.
sub·ju·gate
make someone or something subordinate to.
The Catholic church makes women subordinate to men when by allowing men to teach women, but not women to teach men. They have a right to believe that women shouldn't be able to teach/preach to men. Up to us to agree with such a stance or not.
You not thinking it to be a historical account is pretty convenient don't you think? (I went down a similar path during my de-conversion).I didn't respond to your OT understanding because I don't think it is a historical account. It is a story. Also, the story doesn't say women are to be subjugated per se, but that if they are captured do not kill the virgin females. If anything, this shows that the culture thought highly of virgin females.
For me, it shows a culture dominated by men that wrote about what they figured their god concept would also desire. I can't imagine a god creating the universe, yet having this very male desire for 'virgin' girls. Man inventing the available god concepts does explain this virgin desire that many of the gods have. I'm open to a god that has a thing for virgin girls, it just seems very human to me.
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I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
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Re: Why Would God Make Rules Subjugating Women?
Post #40This is not an answer, other to implicitly say, 'Women are inferior to men and were made to serve men; that's just the way God created them.'
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