How does atheism supply meaning?

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How does atheism supply meaning?

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Post by Wootah »

Clownboat wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:32 am
We are either simply part of the world existing for a brief time, in a massive universe, with death waiting and no purpose and meaninglessness and not in control of anything or we can create something and be something. This is atheism on one end and creation on the other.

It's why I don't believe there are atheists. No one can truly hold that view and I certainly don't think any atheists on this site really drink that cup to the full. I tried. Once. A long time ago.
Obviously, people do hold this view, less the meaningless part that was added to poison the well.
For those that are uncomfortable with said view, there are religious options available to fulfill the need to have purpose supplied to them.

What I can't understand is how it is a struggle for some to find purpose in this life and then seem to project that on to others that don't suffer from such a thing. I personally treat this life as something special and have plenty of purpose, because for all I know, it is the only one we will get. The idea of this life being a test for some other life actually would make this life less meaningful as the next would become the true goal. Therefore, could it be argued that atheism supplies more meaning/value for this life than religions in general? Those that struggle to find purpose without religion would obviously not be able to see this and would then be susceptible making claims like we see above.

"No one can truly hold that view" would therefore simply be a projection.
How does atheism supply meaning?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: How does atheism supply meaning?

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Post by OneWay »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:33 am
OneWay wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:48 am Your reply is a reflection of you. I do not give any meaning to it.
You ain't the first theist to reject the fact that atheists can find meaning in their life.
You are just another brick in the wall.

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Re: How does atheism supply meaning?

Post #32

Post by JoeyKnothead »

OneWay wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:09 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:33 am
OneWay wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:48 am Your reply is a reflection of you. I do not give any meaning to it.
You ain't the first theist to reject the fact that atheists can find meaning in their life.
You are just another brick in the wall.
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Re: How does atheism supply meaning?

Post #33

Post by theophile »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:14 pm
theophile wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:54 pm ...
...The door is wide open to a theism that takes all the good from reason and evidence (I'm by no means trying to disparage them), and that makes them even better by putting them in the service of God, and to achieving God's ends.
Our task then becomes determining what ends it is God's hoping to get to.

Is there anyone among us who can show they know?
It's clear from Genesis 1, isn't it, that everything God is working towards is in the service of life? i.e., creating the conditions for life and then creating life of every kind, ultimately deeming a world filled with life 'good'? I don't think God's end is anything more complicated than that, i.e., a world where every kind of life can flourish and be.

Now, if your question is more, how do we know that what the bible depicts is in fact God's end?, that's another question entirely. And I would say that to answer it we'd need to rethink the approach commonly taken. The problem is most folks treat God as some sort of conscious being, in which case I would tend to agree with you that it's impossible to know what such a God is thinking unless God communicates it. And even then, there would still be room for doubt on whether it was in fact God doing the talking.

I would take a different approach and suggest that God isn't God because of who or what God is, but rather God is God because of the end that God calls us to.

In other words, God is more of an honorific, title, or role we assign to someone based on choice, because we agree with the direction that they are going or would take us. No different from how we often choose our political leaders and then call them 'president' or 'queen'...

Once we make that move, the problem isn't so much what God's end is, since we chose it, but rather what God underlies that end. For which of course I also think there are answers. :)

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Re: How does atheism supply meaning?

Post #34

Post by Diogenes »

Wootah wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:56 pm How does atheism supply meaning?
The question posed by the OP only shows an abject failure (or direct refusal) to accept the meaning of the word. Demanding that atheism should supply meaning is like expecting a rock to grow or a mountain to be flat. 12 years on this list should have been enough to learn the meaning of the word. As has been explained to Wootah hundreds of times here (not to mention recourse to a dictionary) atheism is not a philosophy or a system of thought; it is simply a lack of belief in gods.

An atheist may also be a philosopher, a scientist, a teacher, a father, a mother, a philanthropist, an artist or choose any path they feel will bring meaning. Atheists may also accept that life has no inherent meaning. The atheist is free to make his own meaning.

One thing the atheist does not do is to accept a pasted on meaning he got from someone else. He does not bow to an empty promise. She does not glory in a fancy looking package, all noise, bangles, glitter and ribbons, signifying nothing. The atheist is free to accept the wonder of life, the glory of nature, the beauty of the stars.
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Re: How does atheism supply meaning?

Post #35

Post by Purple Knight »

theophile wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:12 pmI'm also not trying to say that by creating meaning for themselves an atheist becomes a theist, but only that they share with theism something very fundamental I think, i.e., choice, which means a leap of faith.

I've basically been creating a sidebar argument here that atheists who pride themselves on things like reason and evidence should recognize what they're up to. Reason and evidence are something we have to put our trust in, no different from God. No different from any other creative path or meaning we make.

It's not theistic but there's a certain religious mode to it, you know?
It certainly can. There certainly are people who use "reason and evidence" with that religious note, and they often say things like "the science" or "the facts" and they don't fully understand (for example) the paper they're referencing, or even if they do (here's the kicker) they are imparting trust (which to me is pretty interchangeable with faith) to whoever wrote it, trusting that they didn't simply fudge their data.

To me reason and evidence means what I can deduce from what I see. At one point I absolutely did have faith/trust in the scientific community, but I don't have it anymore. I'll tentatively accept that a peer-reviewed paper is true, because not doing so earns me flak for being a conspiracy theorist, but I don't believe in it.

I don't even believe Abraham Lincoln existed. I'll say I do to avoid sounding like a lunatic but I really don't. I mean, he probably did exist, but give me a time machine and $100 to bet on it, and I'll just keep the $100 and not make the bet.
theophile wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:08 amIn other words, God is more of an honorific, title, or role we assign to someone based on choice, because we agree with the direction that they are going or would take us. No different from how we often choose our political leaders and then call them 'president' or 'queen'...
This is basically a perfect analogy. It's about trust and choosing someone to lead. You can do that. You can also not vote for this fellow and disagree. It also solves one of my main problems, which is, why is God God, and why am I not God? Mostly, most of you will say it's wrong for me to use my infinite godlike power to impose my will, but you won't say that for God. Well, it's because you guys didn't vote for me. And the teeming masses of Jews, Christians, and Muslims equal a lot of votes. Fair enough.

But that means I can still cast my vote the other way. I get one too.

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Re: How does atheism supply meaning?

Post #36

Post by JoeyKnothead »

theophile wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:08 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:14 pm
theophile wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:54 pm ...
...The door is wide open to a theism that takes all the good from reason and evidence (I'm by no means trying to disparage them), and that makes them even better by putting them in the service of God, and to achieving God's ends.
Our task then becomes determining what ends it is God's hoping to get to.

Is there anyone among us who can show they know?
It's clear from Genesis 1, isn't it, that everything God is working towards is in the service of life? i.e., creating the conditions for life and then creating life of every kind, ultimately deeming a world filled with life 'good'? I don't think God's end is anything more complicated than that, i.e., a world where every kind of life can flourish and be.

Now, if your question is more, how do we know that what the bible depicts is in fact God's end?, that's another question entirely. And I would say that to answer it we'd need to rethink the approach commonly taken. The problem is most folks treat God as some sort of conscious being, in which case I would tend to agree with you that it's impossible to know what such a God is thinking unless God communicates it. And even then, there would still be room for doubt on whether it was in fact God doing the talking.

I would take a different approach and suggest that God isn't God because of who or what God is, but rather God is God because of the end that God calls us to.

In other words, God is more of an honorific, title, or role we assign to someone based on choice, because we agree with the direction that they are going or would take us. No different from how we often choose our political leaders and then call them 'president' or 'queen'...

Once we make that move, the problem isn't so much what God's end is, since we chose it, but rather what God underlies that end. For which of course I also think there are answers. :)
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Re: How does atheism supply meaning?

Post #37

Post by Diogenes »

theophile wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:08 am It's clear from Genesis 1, isn't it, that everything God is working towards is in the service of life? i.e., creating the conditions for life and then creating life of every kind, ultimately deeming a world filled with life 'good'? I don't think God's end is anything more complicated than that, i.e., a world where every kind of life can flourish and be.
Not exactly. :)
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.  And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.  So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Genesis 6:5-7

"It's clear from Genesis... that everything God is working towards is in the service of..."
... his own power and control over men.
This is of course the function of the Hebrew 'God,' to frighten people into obedience, on pain of death. This is the function of all theistic religions, to raise the specter of an all powerful beast that will punish bad behavior. This is one of the prime functions of religion, to enforce service to leaders of the State, and thus render the people docile and obedient.

If the leaders can implant into the minds of the masses the idea of an all powerful 'God' who will punish improper behavior, this gives power and control to the high priests who control the gullible masses. Even a beneficent society needs order and a degree of subservience to the 'greater good.' What better way to accomplish this goal than to instill the idea of an all powerful, all seeing 'God' who will punish 'enemies of the State?'
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Re: How does atheism supply meaning?

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Diogenes wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:06 pm
theophile wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:08 am It's clear from Genesis 1, isn't it, that everything God is working towards is in the service of life? i.e., creating the conditions for life and then creating life of every kind, ultimately deeming a world filled with life 'good'? I don't think God's end is anything more complicated than that, i.e., a world where every kind of life can flourish and be.
Not exactly. :)
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.  And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.  So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Genesis 6:5-7

"It's clear from Genesis... that everything God is working towards is in the service of..."
... his own power and control over men.
This is of course the function of the Hebrew 'God,' to frighten people into obedience, on pain of death. This is the function of all theistic religions, to raise the specter of an all powerful beast that will punish bad behavior. This is one of the prime functions of religion, to enforce service to leaders of the State, and thus render the people docile and obedient.

If the leaders can implant into the minds of the masses the idea of an all powerful 'God' who will punish improper behavior, this gives power and control to the high priests who control the gullible masses. Even a beneficent society needs order and a degree of subservience to the 'greater good.' What better way to accomplish this goal than to instill the idea of an all powerful, all seeing 'God' who will punish 'enemies of the State?'
We can see a great example of this here in Murica, where 'pious' religious leaders flocked to TFG, eager to kiss his ring.
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Re: How does atheism supply meaning?

Post #39

Post by theophile »

Diogenes wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:06 pm
theophile wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:08 am It's clear from Genesis 1, isn't it, that everything God is working towards is in the service of life? i.e., creating the conditions for life and then creating life of every kind, ultimately deeming a world filled with life 'good'? I don't think God's end is anything more complicated than that, i.e., a world where every kind of life can flourish and be.
Not exactly. :)
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.  And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.  So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Genesis 6:5-7

Great verse, and perfect example of how God serves life. I know it's a hard thing to accept, but we all intuitively know that sometimes destruction is called for to achieve the end that I'm talking about, where every kind of life can flourish and be.

Sometimes you have to rip out the weeds so that the other plants can grow. We have to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Diogenes wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:06 pm "It's clear from Genesis... that everything God is working towards is in the service of..."
... his own power and control over men.
This is of course the function of the Hebrew 'God,' to frighten people into obedience, on pain of death. This is the function of all theistic religions, to raise the specter of an all powerful beast that will punish bad behavior. This is one of the prime functions of religion, to enforce service to leaders of the State, and thus render the people docile and obedient.

If the leaders can implant into the minds of the masses the idea of an all powerful 'God' who will punish improper behavior, this gives power and control to the high priests who control the gullible masses. Even a beneficent society needs order and a degree of subservience to the 'greater good.' What better way to accomplish this goal than to instill the idea of an all powerful, all seeing 'God' who will punish 'enemies of the State?'
That's not the kind of God I'm talking about. Something more in the spirit of Christ, you know, who still brings the sword.

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Re: How does atheism supply meaning?

Post #40

Post by Diogenes »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:50 pm
Diogenes wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:06 pm "It's clear from Genesis... that everything God is working towards is in the service of..."
... his own power and control over men.
This is of course the function of the Hebrew 'God,' to frighten people into obedience, on pain of death. This is the function of all theistic religions, to raise the specter of an all powerful beast that will punish bad behavior. This is one of the prime functions of religion, to enforce service to leaders of the State, and thus render the people docile and obedient.

If the leaders can implant into the minds of the masses the idea of an all powerful 'God' who will punish improper behavior, this gives power and control to the high priests who control the gullible masses. Even a beneficent society needs order and a degree of subservience to the 'greater good.' What better way to accomplish this goal than to instill the idea of an all powerful, all seeing 'God' who will punish 'enemies of the State?'
[/size]
We can see a great example of this here in Murica, where 'pious' religious leaders flocked to TFG, eager to kiss his ring.
Except that instead of a King of Morality, these pious phonies have rushed to embrace a demagogue, solely because he is a member of their tribe, certainly not because of any morality. He is the opposite, a multiple public adulterer, tax cheat, fraud and traitor who claims the Constitution should be suspended in his favor, but he claims to be part of their tribe, so they wet their pants over him.

If Christianity provided any real meaning, evangelicals would have shunned the orange antichrist. Instead they fawned over him. One would hope being a Christian would make a difference. I guess it does, but in too many cases the difference it makes is embarrassing.
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