The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Diogenes
Guru
Posts: 1353
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 12:53 pm
Location: Washington
Has thanked: 895 times
Been thanked: 1306 times

The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

The proposition for debate is that when one takes the tales of Genesis literally, one becomes intellectually disabled, at least temporarily. Taking Genesis literally requires one to reject biology (which includes evolution) and other sciences in favor of 'magic.' Geology and radiometric dating have to be rejected since the Earth formed only about 6000 years ago, during the same week the Earth was made (in a single day).

Much of the debate in the topic of Science and Religion consists of theists who insist on a literal interpretation of Genesis rejecting basic science. Most of the resulting debates are not worth engaging in.
___________________________________

Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves

— Confucius

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2575 times

Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #641

Post by JoeyKnothead »

dad1 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:04 pm
brunumb wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:21 pm
dad1 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:19 am You do not accept the bible or the scholarly attempts to get some idea of when the patriarchs lived. If it is in the bible it is verified!
Nonsense. The Bible is a book of claims. Nothing with any supernatural connotations has been verified. A lot of the allegedly historical records have not been verified. The Bible needs verification before it can be used to support any arguments based on what it contains. Applying faith is worthless. Faith is not a virtue. Faith can be used to prop up beliefs that are patently false along with those that are true. It is useless as a means of determining truth.
I disagree. Jesus said one thing and you say another. Overruled.
Oh man, next we'll be hit with the Brothers Grimm doctrine.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

dad1
Under Suspension
Posts: 449
Joined: Fri May 14, 2021 3:40 am
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #642

Post by dad1 »

brunumb wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:42 pm We don't know what Jesus actually said.
Yes. We do.
All we have is hearsay.
No. We have Jesus promising that He would send His Spirit to some in order that they get the words exactly right. We also have people that knew Him firsthand write their accounts like Peter and John. Paul also met Jesus and was taught by Him later miraculously. It was not done in secret.
We can't even be sure that biblical Jesus even existed.
As one writer put it

"“Tiberius was the most powerful man in the world of his day. Jesus was one of the poorest, belonging to the peasant class as a Jewish carpenter. He even died the most shameful death, a slave’s death, on a cross during Tiberius’ reign. Yet we have far more reliable written sources and closer to the time of Jesus’ actual life and death than this Caesar of Rome."

https://seanmcdowell.org/blog/the-histo ... for-caesar



Engaging in denial that Jesus lived is akin to believing there was no last week.

dad1
Under Suspension
Posts: 449
Joined: Fri May 14, 2021 3:40 am
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #643

Post by dad1 »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:17 pm I prefer slang words to theist lies.
I prefer them over evo lies.
I do so by showing how theist claims're empty as the donation bucket at a thieves convention.
By parroting and slang? Or have you more depth?
No. The insinuation is that if you could put truth to your claims you wouldn't hafta keep railing about how science can't help you put you no truth to your claims.
I am not sure how you think I could put truth to truth? I take the bible as truth. So if you have some science that exposes that as false why are we seeing this sort of spam posting (after you promised you were leaving but didn't)?
The idea here is that you are supposed to talk science and bring it clearly and concisely to bear on any point you are trying to say that science knows.
In what was does the smell of laundry help the theist prove their claims?
That was to help with the dog you spoke about in your drawer. Of course that was made up anyhow. Maybe you think it is a science claim?

dad1
Under Suspension
Posts: 449
Joined: Fri May 14, 2021 3:40 am
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #644

Post by dad1 »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:20 pm
dad1 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:04 pm
brunumb wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:21 pm
dad1 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:19 am You do not accept the bible or the scholarly attempts to get some idea of when the patriarchs lived. If it is in the bible it is verified!
Nonsense. The Bible is a book of claims. Nothing with any supernatural connotations has been verified. A lot of the allegedly historical records have not been verified. The Bible needs verification before it can be used to support any arguments based on what it contains. Applying faith is worthless. Faith is not a virtue. Faith can be used to prop up beliefs that are patently false along with those that are true. It is useless as a means of determining truth.
I disagree. Jesus said one thing and you say another. Overruled.
Oh man, next we'll be hit with the Brothers Grimm doctrine.
There is no end to the number of beliefs you could choose. The folks here that chose a science belief, though, need to have a grip on things and be able to talk turkey about specifics in defending their religion.

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2575 times

Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #645

Post by JoeyKnothead »

dad1 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:26 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:17 pm I prefer slang words to theist lies.
I prefer them over evo lies.
That's on you. Evolution's a fact.
dad1 wrote:
JK wrote: I do so by showing how theist claims're empty as the donation bucket at a thieves convention.
By parroting and slang? Or have you more depth?
If theist claims had any depth, maybe my responses would be a bit depthier.
dad1 wrote: I am not sure how you think I could put truth to truth?
Such is a question for the claimant.
dad1 wrote: I take the bible as truth.
That doesn't make it so.
dad1 wrote: So if you have some science that exposes that as false why are we seeing this sort of spam posting (after you promised you were leaving but didn't)?
I have no doubt you believe a book of fairy tales.

But do link to and quote verbatim, where I've promised anything of the sort.
dad1 wrote: The idea here is that you are supposed to talk science and bring it clearly and concisely to bear on any point you are trying to say that science knows.
I was under the impression members of the moderator team could not also be on probation.
dad1 wrote:
JK wrote: In what way does the smell of laundry help the theist prove their claims?
That was to help with the dog you spoke about in your drawer. Of course that was made up anyhow. Maybe you think it is a science claim?
Well how bout that. You believe biblical tales, but draw the line at tales of dogs getting into sock drawers.

But since I can't prove my dog's a sock junkie, I'll retract that bit.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

User avatar
brunumb
Savant
Posts: 6019
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6747 times
Been thanked: 3234 times

Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #646

Post by brunumb »

dad1 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:19 am We have Jesus promising that He would send His Spirit to some in order that they get the words exactly right.
What we have is someone writing down promises and attributing them to Jesus. Nothing about Jesus can be verified. You believe because you were inculcated with that belief, not because there is any irrefutable evidence that any of it is true. The book is the claim, not the evidence.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

dad1
Under Suspension
Posts: 449
Joined: Fri May 14, 2021 3:40 am
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #647

Post by dad1 »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:55 am That's on you. Evolution's a fact.
Why would it not be? Evolving was a God given created trait for life here. In fact the adapting and evolving that went on in Adam's day was lightning fast compared to today. However, all adapting and evolving started with the created kinds! Science has nothing to say about that. The modern theory of evolution is a religious dogma founded on misconceptions, unbelief, and pure faith alone.

If theist claims had any depth, maybe my responses would be a bit depthier.
I don't think we'll hold our breath.
Such is a question for the claimant.
You were the one declaring what truth was or was not.
That doesn't make it so.
No. We believe because it is true. Believing is not what makes it true.
I have no doubt you believe a book of fairy tales.
We can see that you call Scripture fairy tales. So tell us, what inspired the little hot soup to pop out the entire universe?
I was under the impression members of the moderator team could not also be on probation.
Not sure what that means or if there was a point.
Well how bout that. You believe biblical tales, but draw the line at tales of dogs getting into sock drawers.
No. Actually a dog sniffing your drawer would not surprise me.
But since I can't prove my dog's a sock junkie, I'll retract that bit.
OK, your first retraction is noted.

dad1
Under Suspension
Posts: 449
Joined: Fri May 14, 2021 3:40 am
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #648

Post by dad1 »

brunumb wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:01 am
What we have is someone writing down promises and attributing them to Jesus.


You know John was a liar...because...?
Nothing about Jesus can be verified.

By who? Science? Hahaha
not because there is any irrefutable evidence that any of it is true.

I disagree. I agree with this instead


Acts 1:3
To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God

Can we see you present your first lifeform for forty days and your singularity speck? No. Not for a second, because they are made up fantasy.
The book is the claim, not the evidence.
Your claim about the book is a claim, not evidence. Such scoffing was predicted in the book in these days. You are evidence for the book!

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2575 times

Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #649

Post by JoeyKnothead »

dad1 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:21 am Evolving was a God given created trait for life here.
I challenge you to show you speak truth regarding the following...

1. God exists.
2. God can give stuff.
3. Traits are among the given.
4. Evolution is one of those given traits.
In fact the adapting and evolving that went on in Adam's day was lightning fast compared to today.
I challenge you to show you speak truth in the following...

5. Adam existed.
6. Evolution was lightning fast in Adam's day.
However, all adapting and evolving started with the created kinds!
Who or what do you propose created these "kinds"?
Science has nothing to say about that. The modern theory of evolution is a religious dogma founded on misconceptions, unbelief, and pure faith alone.
Says the bible promoter.
...
No. We believe because it is true. Believing is not what makes it true.
Then what's all that about faith?
We can see that you call Scripture fairy tales. So tell us, what inspired the little hot soup to pop out the entire universe?
I make no claims regarding the early universe.
dad1 wrote:
JK wrote: But since I can't prove my dog's a sock junkie, I'll retract that bit.
OK, your first retraction is noted.
Retracting unsupportable claims is the honorable thing to do.

Let's see how you do regarding your above challenged claims.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

dad1
Under Suspension
Posts: 449
Joined: Fri May 14, 2021 3:40 am
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

Post #650

Post by dad1 »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:01 pm I challenge you to show you speak truth regarding the following...
1. God exists
2. God can give stuff.
God is above the ability of science to deal with. The innumerable proofs for God fall outside the sandbox of science. Why post that question on a science forum?
3. Traits are among the given.
4. Evolution is one of those given traits.
If we see a trait in a creature, or all creatures that were created, how would it possibly not be a part of the way they were created? It fits all the evidence we do have, the fossil record, etc. However, since science cannot detect anything to do with God, it falls under the firm category of belief alone. When people pretend science does or could or should cover these things, it is inevitable that we see that only faith is involved in reality, not fact or evidence itself, knowledge or science in any real sense of the word.
I challenge you to show you speak truth in the following...

5. Adam existed.
6. Evolution was lightning fast in Adam's day.
Since it is established here by all responses so far, that science has no possible way of knowing, the only way to speak the truth about what and when and how God created is to read His word on the matter. Now, within that framework, using both the evidence from science and Scripture, it is a simple matter to deduce that whatever happened back then happened in a short time period. This we know because Adam did not live all that long ago. Then, looking at the fossil record, we see that many different creatures that are very similar existed. That would likely mean that these similar creatures, for the most part, adapted and changed (evolved) from the same original created kind. Elementary.
Who or what do you propose created these "kinds"?
Science has no way of knowing. They simply use a belief that there is no God since they can't see Him, and explain it all accordingly.
Science has nothing to say about that. The modern theory of evolution is a religious dogma founded on misconceptions, unbelief, and pure faith alone.
Says the bible promoter.
It doesn't matter who says it if it is true.
...
No. We believe because it is true. Believing is not what makes it true.
Then what's all that about faith?
Faith does not mean if we choose to try to believe, that this then is what makes God true, or history, or last week, or creation etc. He must first be true, and then when we 'plug in' to the power, we partake also. (have faith grow)
I make no claims regarding the early universe.
But does science? Ever heard of the big bang?
Retracting unsupportable claims is the honorable thing to do.
Great, and since science can support NO origin claims with anything but belief, do the honorable thing!

Post Reply