Can you prove water exists?

[AquinasForGod]

The question for debate: Can you prove water exists?

You might say, we cannot prove anything absolutely. I agree. Then you might say, we can show evidence for things to justify our beliefs. Right, we can show evidence that water is a composite of hydrogen and oxygen.

But do you have evidence water exists outside our minds? What is that evidence?

Showing what water seems to be made of is not evidence it exists outside our minds. You might say, why not stick your head underwater and see if you drown? How would that be evidence that water exists outside our minds?

It could be that we are all living in some very long shared dream or something like the Matrix. In that case, we would all mentally see me drown. I would experience drowning. I have drowned in a dream. The fact I drowned sure doesn't show that the dream water existed outside my mind.

This question of course extends to everything. Do we have evidence that trees exist outside our minds?

If we cannot even offer evidence that water exists beyond our minds, something we probably interact with daily, why would we expect to demonstrate God exists outside our minds?

Now if we cannot show evidence that water exists outside our minds, does that mean it doesn't exist outside our minds? If we cannot give evidence that water exists outside our minds does that mean it is unreasonable to believe that water exists outside our minds? i.e. is it unreasonable to believe water exists as a physical object even if we cannot give evidence it is indeed a physical object that exists outside our minds?

[AquinasForGod]

Not even an attempt at evidence that water exists outside our minds?

[Shem Yoshi]

As far as im concerned there is absolutely no evidence of water at all. None. Just unverified claims that it exists.
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[JoeyKnothead]

If we cannot even offer evidence that water exists beyond our minds, something we probably interact with daily, why would we expect to demonstrate God exists outside our minds?

Cause some folks, in the name of a god they can't show exists but within their own minds, feel they need to restrict the rights and freedoms of others.

[Purple Knight]

No I can't prove water exists.

I don't expect anyone to demonstrate God exists either but I do make a qualitative distinction between grades of evidence when 1) nobody would deny the thing and 2) I have personal interaction with that thing.

Having both of those things is when I actually believe something. Having one or the other is a maybe, but it's a strongly positive maybe. Having neither is when I start to say, no, I do not believe that. I'll say I believe things like the latest scientific paper oh how rigorous and standards so perfect but really I don't. If you gave me free money to bet on it, I would, if it was an option, pocket the money and not bet (but I wouldn't bet against it either). I didn't see him collect his data and there are at least some deniers so I don't go about thinking I'm automatically wrong to doubt.

To be perfectly honest with you, if I lived in a universe where everyone I met believed in God, I would go about not really super duper believing in God but thinking I was probably wrong and just going along with it and not saying a word about it.

And if I have personal interaction with something and personal proof of something to which the common answer is no it does not exist (I actually have this for one or two things) I believe it myself but if asked, I usually deny it.

[The Barbarian]

Could be that I am the only thing in this universe, and everything is no more than a construct within my mind. Or maybe a construct within some mind. Or maybe there's in infinity of beings like me, each with a universe within their minds.

What difference would it make? If everything is a construct in the mind of God or me, how does that change anything at all? People who assert solipsism are putting Descartes before the source.

[AquinasForGod]

Could be that I am the only thing in this universe, and everything is no more than a construct within my mind. Or maybe a construct within some mind. Or maybe there's in infinity of beings like me, each with a universe within their minds.

What difference would it make? If everything is a construct in the mind of God or me, how does that change anything at all? People who assert solipsism are putting Descartes before the source.

That is a fair question. The difference it makes is that we have no foundation for physicalism.

We do have a foundation for idealism, however, because if I try to doubt that I think, I only demonstrate that I think, so I know at least mental stuff exists.

Now if someone wants to claim, for example, that my mind depends on physical stuff, they need to first demonstrate that physical stuff exists, that physical stuff is more than a mental construct or just a form of mental stuff.

Without a foundation for physicalism, they have no grounds to claim minds are dependent on matter. Or that the death of the body is somehow the end of mental experiences.

[JoeyKnothead]

Could be that I am the only thing in this universe, and everything is no more than a construct within my mind. Or maybe a construct within some mind. Or maybe there's in infinity of beings like me, each with a universe within their minds.

What difference would it make? If everything is a construct in the mind of God or me, how does that change anything at all? People who assert solipsism are putting Descartes before the source.

"Descartes before the source"
Lomfpoc

[JoeyKnothead]

Could be that I am the only thing in this universe, and everything is no more than a construct within my mind. Or maybe a construct within some mind. Or maybe there's in infinity of beings like me, each with a universe within their minds.

What difference would it make? If everything is a construct in the mind of God or me, how does that change anything at all? People who assert solipsism are putting Descartes before the source.

That is a fair question. The difference it makes is that we have no foundation for physicalism.

We do have a foundation for idealism, however, because if I try to doubt that I think, I only demonstrate that I think, so I know at least mental stuff exists.

Now if someone wants to claim, for example, that my mind depends on physical stuff, they need to first demonstrate that physical stuff exists, that physical stuff is more than a mental construct or just a form of mental stuff.

Without a foundation for physicalism, they have no grounds to claim minds are dependent on matter. Or that the death of the body is somehow the end of mental experiences.

Get drunk one night and stumble through a darkened living room. You're apt to quickly find coffee table legs and toes are both real things.

[The Barbarian]

Get drunk one night and stumble through a darkened living room. You're apt to quickly find coffee table legs and toes are both real things.

There was a faith-healer of Deal,
Who said: "Although pain isn't real,
If I sit on a pin
And it punctures my skin,
I dislike what I fancy I feel.'