Does Christ speak and how?

[tam]

May you have peace!

A question that continues to be posed to me is with regard to my bearing witness to a living and speaking Christ. How does He speak? What does that mean? How can we test that?

I imagine that one reason the questions are continually posed to me is because I cannot provide the proof that some are asking me to provide. I can only provide evidence in the form of:

a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ
b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ
c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter


If none of the above are acceptable to someone, then I am not sure what more that person and I would have to talk about on this particular matter. We could hopefully discuss respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic. For those who are interested...


Christ said that His sheep would hear His voice.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." John 10:27

"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.…" John 10:14-16



Written testimony about/from others who heard His voice, confirming the truth of what He said:

The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it." Acts 8:29

**
In Damascus, there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"

"Yes Lord," he answered.

The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight." (Acts 9:10,11... and it continues)

**
There is Peter's vision telling him that he should eat foods that he considered unclean, and then after his vision:

While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit (Christ) said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them." (Acts 10: 9-20)

**
There are of course multiple examples from Paul. The entire book of Revelation is from Christ to John. There is a warning against hardening our hearts if we hear His voice.

As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." Hebrews 3:15

Then of course there are the examples of Abraham, who heard, Noah, who heard, the prophets, who heard, Joseph, who heard, Daniel, who heard, etc, etc. Their faith is based upon the evidence of what they heard.



My own personal testimony


I did not always know that Christ spoke, and I did not always recognize that voice within me as being His. But someone else bore witness to a living speaking Christ, and it bothered me, lol. I had just ended a two year bible study with a certain denomination, and I did not want to get misled by man ever gain. But here was this person claiming that Christ spoke. If I believed this person, that they were from God, then what was wrong with me that I allowed myself to get misled yet again. On the other hand, what was wrong with me if this person did hear Christ, and I rejected them?

But soon into my dilemma (and my asking how I might know, even though I thought I was just asking myself) I heard:

Test WHAT this person is saying. Test the message. Do not pay attention to the person. Test to see if what this person is saying is true, or not. Then you will know who this person is from.


I still did not know this was Christ speaking to me. I just thought, "Oh, of course... that is what I will do."

So that is what I did. Along the way, I saw all these verses and examples and testimony that Christ does indeed speak, that God spoke also, though now speaks through Christ. In dreams, in visions, in direct words, in reminders, in opening eyes and ears to a truth that one might read, see, or hear. Once I realized that Christ is supposed to speak, I asked for ears to hear as well. Even though I did hear Him; I just did not know I heard Him. I needed to learn His voice and recognize Him.

**

I was asked how does He speak

He speaks in words. He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of). He speaks in dreams. He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me. He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible. He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.

Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.


The language that He speaks is truth. He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.



(As for testing the inspired expression... anything that is in conflict with what Christ teaches cannot be true. Also Christ (truth) comes from love (God), so nothing that He says will be in conflict with love. Especially since the law that is written upon our hearts in the new covenant is the law of love.)


**

I do not expect anyone to take my word for these things. I do not take the word of others for what they claim came from Christ. I explained above what I did, what I heard from Christ TO do.

If I have shared anything that helps anyone, then great. If not, then no problem. I am not the one people should be listening to if they are following or desiring to follow Christ... I can only point TO that One: Christ Jaheshua, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, the Chosen One of Jah. Christ, who is Himself, the faithful and true witness of His Father, Jah.



If one wants to know the truth of this matter themselves... then ask Christ. That is how one can confirm for themselves. Ask for ears to hear, and in the meantime DO what He has said to do, so that you prove yourself to Him. He does not have to prove Himself to us.

"If anyone loves me, they will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with (in) them."


(Please note that He says that they will obey HIS teaching. Not man's teaching. Not religion or religious leaders, not Paul, not the law, or anyone or anything else over Him. If we love HIM... we will obey HIM. If we love someone or something else more, then we will listen to and obey that one/thing. Including if we love our religion more than Him, although we might not realize it at the time. Including if we think the bible is the Word of God, especially when even that book states that Christ is the Word of God; and Christ himself said, "You diligently search the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about ME, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.")



May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, to get a sense of these things, and to hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the bride SAY to you, "Come... take the free gift of the water of life."


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you,

I do not have any religious leaders, dear Clownboat.

He is a leader (the Leader, my Leader, King, Master, Lord). But He is not a part of religion; He did not create a religion; religion does not come from Him.

Jesus ( c. 4 BC – AD 30 or 33), also referred to as Jesus Christ or Jesus of Nazareth (among other names and titles), was a first-century Jewish preacher and religious leader. He is the central figure of Christianity, the world's largest religion.

Please note what I said which you have neither refuted nor addressed:

He is not a part of religion. (He is not in religion; has no union or sharing with religion).

He did not create a religion.

Religion does not come from Him.

Just because a religion (or two) uses the name "Jesus" does not refute any of the above.

The RCC claims their religion is built upon Peter, but that does not make the claim TRUE... nor does it mean that Peter approved or built that religion upon himself. It just means that men used his name to give their religion some kind of authority.

Same with Christianity - although the name of Christ is not now nor has it ever been "Jesus".

Faith and religion are not the same thing.

Actually, some Christians do refer to their religion as their faith, but it really matters not here as it is semantics.

It is not semantics.

Faith and religion are not the same thing. Just as Christ and "Christianity" (the religion) are not the same thing.

You can have a religion without having faith. That alone should tell you that the two things are different.

You are the one reading more into my words than what I have said.

If only a Christ assisted with those words, or a spirit would have guided them or if they only relayed godly knowledge. Alas...

Or you could just stop doing that...

What you are doing here also makes no sense. Because I am a mother (good or bad) does that mean that my neighbor is a mother (good or bad)?

Nope, where did you pull that one from?

If I am a terrible server (waitress), does that mean all other servers are terrible

Nope.
It's one thing to think so lowly of yourself to claim to be undeserving, but why project that on to others by loving them like you love yourself which would mean they are also undeserving?

That is where I 'pulled that one from'. So that a) you can see that the connection should not be made in the example about mothers (good or bad)... and I do not apply that to my neighbor (that is between them and their children). And b) See below:

- and even if so, does that mean I do not treat them with respect, show them compassion, forgive them, ask forgiveness for them, give to them if in need, etc, etc?

Straw man. Such things of you have never been suggested.

If it were true that this was a straw man that you have not suggested of me, then what's the issue? Why the objection to loving my neighbor as myself (which was of course to counter your suggestion that some cult I do not belong to has taught me not to love myself)? What difference does it make if I acknowledge that I am a poor servant, even if I thought the same of my neighbor (though what business is it of mine?), with regard to how I am to treat my neighbor (with love, as my Lord has commanded)?

However, it is not true that it was a straw man. YOU have suggested such things... as can be seen in your words below (I will point them out when we get to them***).

The fact that I acknowledge that am a poor servant and undeserving

You are neither of these things though.

Says you (kind of contradictory considering that you believe I do a poor job of witnessing)?

It would be unkind IMO to project such things on to others.

Love your neighbor as yourself does not mean project descriptions of yourself onto your neighbor. Even if they were true of your neighbor, it does not mean you can not love your neighbor.

Let's face it, if you think you are undeserving, surely an atheist in your opinion must also be undeserving. I can't get behind such a thing anylonger myself.

Undeserving of what, Clownboat?

does the EXACT opposite of what you imply... it helps me to understand and love others if/when they perform poorly at a task/role - because I know that I would want mercy and forgiveness to be shown to me for my poor service.

Mercy and forgiveness can be shown without thinking you are undeserving! We all make mistakes,

To the bold: exactly.... we are no better than anyone else; we all make mistakes (sin/err/commit wrongdoing); we all owe one another love (and mercy, forgiveness, compassion - these things come from love).

But if a person (erroneously) thought they were better than others (say, the enemies you suggested that I should reserve 'poor servant and undeserving' for), then that might not be the case.

I thank my dear Lord for reminding me of this just now.

"Be merciful and mercy will be shown you."

Romans 9:15
King James Version
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

For reminding me of what I shared above; the rest are quotes that support it. As for your added quote, there is no contradiction there. God can indeed have mercy upon whomever He chooses. But if we want to have mercy shown to us, then we must also be merciful to others.

"Forgive and you will be forgiven."

Ephesians 1:7
King James Version
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

See above. (If one is in Christ, listening to Him, following Him, then one knows that one must forgive. That is what He did for us - and others - and His command is that we forgive.)

"Judge not and you will not be judged."

Proverbs 31:9
9 Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.

We can judge when judge means show discernment. We cannot judge when judge means condemn; punish.

You're being unkind IMO and justifying your behavior because of a Bible verse.

I'm sorry, but what behavior are you referring to here?

Treating others like they are undeserving, like you do yourself. Treat humans with respect (until it is lost).

***SEE HERE: I told you I would point it out, and here you show that you WERE referring to things like respect.

The behavior that I described as an instance when my dear Lord reminded me what love does - when my coworker was so down, but I was tired and did not want to get involved? The love that my dear Lord reminded me of, that would offer help to someone in need? The love (as reminded me by my Lord) that helped that person, kept them from committing self-harm (their words).

I'm glad you did these things, but it does say a lot about yourself if you only did this because a Lord reminded you.

So then you should be glad that some of us have someone TO remind us of these things, yes? Understanding that I am a poor servant and undeserving has not stopped me from knowing what I should do for others, based on love and my Lord's teachings. So your objections have been shown to be without merit here as well.

These are things we should all do without a Lord reminding us.

And yet, many of us often do not; some of us sometimes do not. Even just passing a homeless person in need without helping them.

Some people of the nations (non-Christians) do the requirements of the law (love) NATURALLY, showing that the requirements of that law are written on their heart NATURALLY. Such ones can enter the Kingdom as subjects of the Kingdom (granted eternal life, no more mourning or pain or death; loved and blessed).

From the thread, "A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell":

viewtopic.php?p=731804#p731804

Perhaps you truly do need a Lord to tell you to do these things? What if you inherently knew you should help your coworker and the voice you heared was just internal, informing you of what you already knew you should be doing?

Because I know my Lord's voice, I know that was Him.

Is that the behavior that you are referring to?

Nope, I'm referring to the undeserving part.

Except you have not identified any behavior from me that would be negative toward my neighbor (or even my enemy) based upon that, have you?

Set free from religion, the cult that you keep referring to? I don't doubt that you are more loving being set free from that.

Thank you. It is sad that religion can cause kind people to be unkind.

On this we are in complete agreement.

But look at what you said:

You are more Christ-like having been set free from your religious beliefs. How can you say that unless you actually DO know that Christ and religion are not the same thing?

Christ and religion are not identical if that is what you mean, but no one here has argued that they are, so I don't understand your point.

That your complaint is against religion and has nothing to do with Christ.

That belonging to a religion does not mean that one belongs to Christ.

That listening to religion does not mean that one is listening to Christ.

That obeying a religion does not mean that one is obeying Christ.

That religion does not teach you to be "Christ-like".

You made that leap, but the negative inferences you have drawn from it have been corrected.

Let's test this shall we?
You say you are undeserving. Tam, is your neighbor undeserving as well?

A - undeserving of what?

B - You have already been shown that my knowledge of myself does not in any way cause me to treat my neighbor (or enemy) without respect, compassion, mercy, forgiveness. So what is the issue?

What is it that you think you are arguing against?

That you are undeserving as you claimed.

You're ignoring the pertinent part of the question.

Undeserving of what exactly.

Don't you think you should know what, before you jump in and decide that I am deserving of it?

Are we (mankind) deserving of all things in existence no matter what... just because?

The above was not an excuse; I was simply trying to help you consider reasons you may not have heard/listened to Christ.

Christ has never said anything for me to listen to. That is the truth. That you hear a voice is on you. Why you are so cavalier about projecting that on to others? Are you trying to make it seem normal?

No, I am trying to be compassionate regarding any sadness a person might feel if they do not (yet) hear and want to hear? If that includes you, fine, but there are other readers as well.

Sometimes people also make the mistake of assuming 'if I did not/do not hear His voice, then no one does" (followed sometimes by "... and certainly not you.")

Of course, had I told you that you did not hear Him because you were instead listening to and following religion, you would have objected to that as well, yes?

If a voice is spoken, following a religion is not a valid mechanism for preventing from hearing said voice. You could claim rejecting a voice due to having a religious belief, but it is silly to think that religions can stop a voice from being heard.

People reject what they do not want to hear all the time. If someone loves their religion - and many do love their religion more than Christ, as proven by the fact that they will obey their religion instead of Christ - then they may ignore the call to come out of her (Babylon the Greater) and all of her daughters (sects and denominations in "Christendom"):

"Come out of her, My people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues. 5For her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities."

"Stop touching the unclean thing and I will take you in."

They may also ignore or reject the truth that Christ is and teaches; because it does not comport with what is familiar and/or with what they want to be true.




Peace again to you.

[William]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #307]

Mercy and forgiveness can be shown without thinking you are undeserving! We all make mistakes, once this is understood, undeserving is irrelevant. This is what I mean by being good for goodness sake. Just show mercy and forgiveness Tam. Don't add undeserving to it. That would seem unkind for humans that value other humans for being human..

If I understand you correctly here Clownboat, you are saying that one does not need to think of ones self in this negative way because;

1: It has not been proven true.
2: It can act as a means by which one judges others through projecting one's sense of unworthiness onto everyone else as a matter of 'fact' [assumed rather than proven].

That would seem to be a pretty accurate analysis, without being all encompassing of course. I have more to say about the purpose/mechanism of self-loathing for example.

A person must first believe they are sick, before they will take the medicine.
A person must first believe they are an undeserving sinner before they will take the medicine that is the sacrifice of their shepherd Christ.

I examine myself and my neighbors, and I do not see either as undeserving. When I see others thinking they are undeserving, I wish I could cure it. Once a person is on the medicine though, they can't just pretend to not be sick anymore as being sick (undeserving) is the prerequisite. This is terribly hard to be set free from, on this I have first hand experience.

I believe that societies would improve if we build each other up (yes, we can acknowledge faults still) in place of attempting to tear each other down. "You are a sinner that deserves hell", for example is not something to build a society upon. This is something men of old were saddled with and we should now do without the division such beliefs cause.

Yes. This sounds reasonable, proactive and productive.
Temet Nosce.
Self-Awareness.
Stuff happens.
If one's umwelt is self-confident one is less pusillanimous

Perhaps those who lack that trust in their own humanity, have reasons for doing so? Perhaps they have learned not to trust humanity at all, and create in their minds, a voice/voices which reenforces this lack of trust in general?

[tam]

Peace to you both,

[Replying to Clownboat in post #307]

Mercy and forgiveness can be shown without thinking you are undeserving! We all make mistakes, once this is understood, undeserving is irrelevant. This is what I mean by being good for goodness sake. Just show mercy and forgiveness Tam. Don't add undeserving to it. That would seem unkind for humans that value other humans for being human..

If I understand you correctly here Clownboat, you are saying that one does not need to think of ones self in this negative way because;

1: It has not been proven true.
2: It can act as a means by which one judges others through projecting one's sense of unworthiness onto everyone else as a matter of 'fact' [assumed rather than proven].

That would seem to be a pretty accurate analysis, without being all encompassing of course. I have more to say about the purpose/mechanism of self-loathing for example.

A person must first believe they are sick, before they will take the medicine.
A person must first believe they are an undeserving sinner before they will take the medicine that is the sacrifice of their shepherd Christ.

I examine myself and my neighbors, and I do not see either as undeserving. When I see others thinking they are undeserving, I wish I could cure it. Once a person is on the medicine though, they can't just pretend to not be sick anymore as being sick (undeserving) is the prerequisite. This is terribly hard to be set free from, on this I have first hand experience.

I believe that societies would improve if we build each other up (yes, we can acknowledge faults still) in place of attempting to tear each other down. "You are a sinner that deserves hell", for example is not something to build a society upon. This is something men of old were saddled with and we should now do without the division such beliefs cause.

Regarding the bold and underlined (emphasis mine), you do realize that you are attempting to do the exact same thing, right? You must first convince me that I am 'sick', so that I am willing to then take the 'cure' that you wish you give.



Peace again to you.

[Clownboat]

Please note what I said which you have neither refuted nor addressed:

He is not a part of religion.

So we have a religious leader, that is not part of religion. I feel that there is nothing to refute as you made my case.

He did not create a religion.

If he was a Mahāyāna Buddhist, why would he?

You can have a religion without having faith.

This would need to be explained, but let's be honest, I'm cutting most of what you type above out for being noting more than empty religious claims.
For example: "He did not create a religion." "Religion does not come from Him." "Just because a religion (or two) uses the name "Jesus" does not refute any of the above."

Then you make us all suffer with your war on language.
re·li·gion
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods.

Tam: "He is not a part of religion."
Away with you! I will not be deceived! Christ is the thing with superhuman powers that Christians consider to be a God. Christ is part of this religion, you just don't understand the word or its meaning. Only you can correct this, but the stigma you have towards religion will not allow you to correct your thinking. You will continue on pretending that religion is something other than what it is, that being a belief in a God.

That alone should tell....

All I need to know.

Why the objection to loving my neighbor as myself

It not healthy to lump your self loathing on to others IMO.

The fact that I acknowledge that am a poor servant and undeserving

You are neither of these things though.

Says you (kind of contradictory considering that you believe I do a poor job of witnessing)?

Your posts show you to be human without any godly knowledge that escapes the rest of us as best I can tell. You still have value though and are deserving of much. So is your neighbor.

Undeserving of what, Clownboat?

Salvation, eternal life, Christ's love or whatever a person feels like imagining they don't deserve. The possibilities are truly endless.

***SEE HERE: I told you I would point it out, and here you show that you WERE referring to things like respect.

Yes, I said these words: Copy/paste: "Treat humans with respect (until it is lost)."
It seems as though you take issue with treating humans with respect. Can you clarify?

So then you should be glad that some of us have someone TO remind us of these things, yes?

I am glad you have this. I just wish you didn't need it and would be kind and compassionate on your own. I'm able afterall. Perhaps I project too much myself? Perhaps you really are underserving, but do you really struggle with being kind and compassionate, if not for the voice?

Understanding that I am a poor servant and undeserving has not stopped me from knowing what I should do for others,

They why should I be glad you have something to remind you of the things you mentioned earlier (when your coworker was so down)? Did you need the voice or didn't you? If you didn't need the voice and could do this on your own, then perhaps you are not as undeserving as you think. So I'm confused as now you seem to argue that the voice is not necessary.

Except you have not identified any behavior from me that would be negative toward my neighbor (or even my enemy) based upon that, have you?

Is your neighbor undeserving of the things you are undeserving?

That your complaint is against religion and has nothing to do with Christ.

LOL! Why are you underserving Tam? Has your Christ not informed you of such? I complain that a Christ voice has convinced you that you are undeserving. You bring up religion because you seem to not understand the meaning of the word which is why you assume my complaint is with religion.

That belonging to a religion does not mean that one belongs to Christ.

My god Tam! Think about your words. Consider a Muslim. They belong to the Muslim religion. Of course that would not mean they belong to a Christ! Yet you took the time to type such a thing..

That listening to religion does not mean that one is listening to Christ.

Same thing Tam. The Mayan's listened to their religion. Obviously they were not even aware of a Christ.

That obeying a religion does not mean that one is obeying Christ.

Of course not, what an odd claim you now argue against. Where did such an idea come from I wonder?

That religion does not teach you to be "Christ-like".

Now why would a tribal religion teach anyone to be Christ'like? Seriously! What odd statments you make. I'm quite dumbfounded.

You say you are undeserving. Tam, is your neighbor undeserving as well?

A - undeserving of what?

Obviously, the thing you claim to be undeserving of. How are you lost on this? Where else has undeserving come up besides from your example? And you are confused?

B - You have already been shown that my knowledge of myself does not in any way cause me to treat my neighbor (or enemy) without respect, compassion, mercy, forgiveness. So what is the issue?

Then why did you dodge the question?
You say you are undeserving. Tam, is your neighbor undeserving as well?

Undeserving of what exactly.

Readers, let the record show that Tam brought up being undeserving. Claimed she was it. She now seems unclear as to what she was referring to and now asks Clownboat.

Don't you think you should know what, before you jump in and decide that I am deserving of it?

I acknowledge your underservedness (or at least that you think you don't deserve). I think I know, but don't claim to know what YOU mean when YOU say you are undeserving. I can only trust you at your words.

Are we (mankind) deserving of all things in existence no matter what... just because?

Deserving of all things? Of course not, what an odd question to ask.

Sometimes people also make the mistake of assuming 'if I did not/do not hear His voice, then no one does" (followed sometimes by "... and certainly not you.")

I acknowledge you hear a voice and not assume that you don't. I don't believe your claim that it is an actual Christ. Yes, I believe that you believe it to be an actual Christ's voice. I hope you can appreciate the distinction.

People reject what they do not want to hear all the time.

You claimed that religion can stop a person from hearing the voice and failed to supply a mechanism as to how that can be possible. Perhaps when you say voice, you mean something else? We do seem to also struggle with the definition of 'religion' here as well.

They may also ignore or reject the truth that Christ is and teaches

So Christ is and teaches, but he is not part of religion?
the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods.
So Christ never taught about a God? You'll need to explain or ammend your thinking it seems.

because it does not comport with what is familiar and/or with what they want to be true.

What better way to make something comport with what a person wants to be true then by claiming to hear the voice of the actual source. Is there a better way then that? Well, I suppose claming that a person's knowledge is the knowledge of a god would be up there as well. Almost forgot arriving at what is true because spirits have guided the process.

Talk about comporting with what a person wants to be true.

[Clownboat]

Peace to you both,

[Replying to Clownboat in post #307]

Mercy and forgiveness can be shown without thinking you are undeserving! We all make mistakes, once this is understood, undeserving is irrelevant. This is what I mean by being good for goodness sake. Just show mercy and forgiveness Tam. Don't add undeserving to it. That would seem unkind for humans that value other humans for being human..

If I understand you correctly here Clownboat, you are saying that one does not need to think of ones self in this negative way because;

1: It has not been proven true.
2: It can act as a means by which one judges others through projecting one's sense of unworthiness onto everyone else as a matter of 'fact' [assumed rather than proven].

That would seem to be a pretty accurate analysis, without being all encompassing of course. I have more to say about the purpose/mechanism of self-loathing for example.

A person must first believe they are sick, before they will take the medicine.
A person must first believe they are an undeserving sinner before they will take the medicine that is the sacrifice of their shepherd Christ.

I examine myself and my neighbors, and I do not see either as undeserving. When I see others thinking they are undeserving, I wish I could cure it. Once a person is on the medicine though, they can't just pretend to not be sick anymore as being sick (undeserving) is the prerequisite. This is terribly hard to be set free from, on this I have first hand experience.

I believe that societies would improve if we build each other up (yes, we can acknowledge faults still) in place of attempting to tear each other down. "You are a sinner that deserves hell", for example is not something to build a society upon. This is something men of old were saddled with and we should now do without the division such beliefs cause.

Regarding the bold and underlined (emphasis mine), you do realize that you are attempting to do the exact same thing, right? You must first convince me that I am 'sick', so that I am willing to then take the 'cure' that you wish you give.



Peace again to you.

Quite the opposite Tam. You are infact not sick. The end.
I have nothing more to offer you in this regard.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Please note what I said which you have neither refuted nor addressed:

He is not a part of religion.

So we have a religious leader, that is not part of religion. I feel that there is nothing to refute as you made my case.

He is not part of religion. I feel as though we have had this conversation at least enough times (at the start of this very thread even) that I do not need to keep adding 'organized, institutionalized' in front of the word, 'religion'.

The RCC = a religion.
The WTS (or whatever JW's are calling their religion) = a religion.
The LDS = a religion.
Christianity (all the denominations and sects within it) = a religion
Islam (all the denominations and sects within it) = a religion
Judaism (all the denominations and sects within it) = a religion

Then you make us all suffer with your war on language.

You are using the word in one sense: worship. Though I am not sure what is wrong with using the word 'worship' if that is all you mean.

I am using the word in the following sense: organized, institutionalized religion.

Religion is from man. Men make them, men lead them, men institute systems of worship, rituals and rites, traditions, etc. Members (at least those members that are not atheists) believe their religions' teachings (and their religious leaders), obeying men even over and above Christ and God.

People (some at least) understand that there is a difference between religion and spirituality; between religion and faith (including WHO one puts their faith IN).

Well, Christ is the Spirit. He and His Father are spirits. Non-religious. But spiritual.

Belonging to a religion (including the religion that calls itself Christianity, and all the sects and denominations in it) does not mean one belongs to Christ.

Why the objection to loving my neighbor as myself

It not healthy to lump your self loathing on to others IMO.

Now this is disingenuous.

A - I have said that I do love myself (how else could I LOVE my neighbor as myself if I did not first LOVE myself < - that is what my Lord teaches).

B - Back in the post that you are responding to, YOU said that you were not referring to how I treated my neighbor (with love, respect, compassion). That then prompted my question to you "Why the objection to loving my neighbor as myself."

You have not answered that question. You have just spun it around and avoided it.

You cannot find an actual problem to what I said about myself, as to how I treat others. So you are making a problem where there is no problem. Why?

The fact that I acknowledge that am a poor servant and undeserving

You are neither of these things though.

Says you (kind of contradictory considering that you believe I do a poor job of witnessing)?

Your posts show you to be human without any godly knowledge that escapes the rest of us as best I can tell.

If that is true, then it would make me a poor servant.

You still have value though and are deserving of much. So is your neighbor.

I never said that I (or my neighbor) did not have value.

“So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Undeserving of what, Clownboat?

Salvation, eternal life, Christ's love or whatever a person feels like imagining they don't deserve. The possibilities are truly endless.

Well let's tackle eternal life.

What exactly has anyone done to deserve that? Did you earn it? Do you think for some reason that you are entitled to it, just because it exists?

It is a gift. One given out of love; one given for free. Just as forgiveness is a gift (something one is fore-GIVEN); something given out of love.

***SEE HERE: I told you I would point it out, and here you show that you WERE referring to things like respect.

Yes, I said these words: Copy/paste: "Treat humans with respect (until it is lost)."
It seems as though you take issue with treating humans with respect. Can you clarify?

Are you being disingenuous here, Clownboat? It is absolutely absurd for you to imply that I would take issue with treating humans with respect.

You said at the start of your post that you were not suggesting even the idea that I did not treat my neighbor with respect or compassion or love, based upon what I said about myself being undeserving. Then you turned around at the bottom of your post and said the above, because you actually were suggesting the idea that I must not treat my neighbor with respect.

Here are the exchanges so you (or the reader) can see it themselves without having to sort through a bunch of text and posts:

Top of your post:

- and even if so, does that mean I do not treat them with respect, show them compassion, forgive them, ask forgiveness for them, give to them if in need, etc, etc?

Straw man. Such things of you have never been suggested.

If it were true that this was a straw man that you have not suggested of me, then what's the issue? Why the objection to loving my neighbor as myself (which was of course to counter your suggestion that some cult I do not belong to has taught me not to love myself)? What difference does it make if I acknowledge that I am a poor servant, even if I thought the same of my neighbor (though what business is it of mine?), with regard to how I am to treat my neighbor (with love, as my Lord has commanded)?

Bottom of your post:

You're being unkind IMO and justifying your behavior because of a Bible verse.

I'm sorry, but what behavior are you referring to here?

Treating others like they are undeserving, like you do yourself. Treat humans with respect (until it is lost).

***

Moving forward...

Understanding that I am a poor servant and undeserving has not stopped me from knowing what I should do for others,

They why should I be glad you have something to remind you of the things you mentioned earlier (when your coworker was so down)? Did you need the voice or didn't you?

I was going home without His reminder that night, so yes, I did need His reminder to do what I knew I should do (but was justifying NOT doing because I was tired and didn't want to get involved.)

You have been trying to imply that Christ has taught me things that would cause me to treat others without love, without respect, with bad behavior... but the example you have been given shows the EXACT OPPOSITE.

Perhaps now some are trying to bury that point under a wall of text. But that was and is the point.

That belonging to a religion does not mean that one belongs to Christ.

My god Tam! Think about your words. Consider a Muslim.

I thought this point should have been obvious, but allow me to clarify:

Belonging to the religion that calls itself Christianity (and all its sects and denominations) does not mean that one belongs to Christ.

That listening to religion does not mean that one is listening to Christ.

Same thing Tam. The Mayan's listened to their religion. Obviously they were not even aware of a Christ.

That obeying a religion does not mean that one is obeying Christ.

Of course not, what an odd claim you now argue against. Where did such an idea come from I wonder?

That religion does not teach you to be "Christ-like".

Now why would a tribal religion teach anyone to be Christ'like? Seriously! What odd statments you make. I'm quite dumbfounded.

For all of these, see directly above. I don't even know why you would be confused about this considering that you are the one who said you are more "Christ-like" after having being set free from your former "religious beliefs". Were you talking about your former tribal religion? Or your time with the Mayans? Or your stint in Islam?

Or are you just avoiding the truth of this matter?

B - You have already been shown that my knowledge of myself does not in any way cause me to treat my neighbor (or enemy) without respect, compassion, mercy, forgiveness. So what is the issue?

Then why did you dodge the question?
You say you are undeserving. Tam, is your neighbor undeserving as well?

A - that was a dodge of the question 'what is the issue'.

B - In answer to your question, from my previous posts:

- Love your neighbor as yourself does not mean project descriptions of yourself onto your neighbor. Even if they were true of your neighbor, it does not mean you can not love your neighbor.

- I also said 'what business is it of mine' (even quoted that above).

Are we (mankind) deserving of all things in existence no matter what... just because?

Deserving of all things? Of course not, what an odd question to ask.

Since you are objecting to my description of myself, it is not an odd question to ask at all. If you acknowledge that we are not deserving of all things... then how do you know I am not referring to one of those things when I say I am undeserving?

Sometimes people also make the mistake of assuming 'if I did not/do not hear His voice, then no one does" (followed sometimes by "... and certainly not you.")

I acknowledge you hear a voice and not assume that you don't. I don't believe your claim that it is an actual Christ. Yes, I believe that you believe it to be an actual Christ's voice. I hope you can appreciate the distinction.

If you were an atheist (or an agnostic, or a member of another religion or faith), then I would understand you position.

If you were a Christian (or even a former self-professed Christian), then the above comes off a bit like semantics.

People reject what they do not want to hear all the time.

You claimed that religion can stop a person from hearing the voice and failed to supply a mechanism as to how that can be possible. Perhaps when you say voice, you mean something else? We do seem to also struggle with the definition of 'religion' here as well.

This is clarified on the other thread. I'll insert a link.

viewtopic.php?p=1104138#p1104138


Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy



Peace again.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #313]

I would still like to view a sample of the type of narrative you have with the voice you claim to be Christ, Tam.

If you would be so kind as to organize it in the fashion of following example:

Tam: What do you think of William's argument, Dear Lord?

The Voice of Christ: William has a point which needs to be addressed by us, Dear Tammy.

_____________________

re ongoing testing of the sprit
re Tam's claim
re The Voice of Christ

[tam]

Why do you want that, William?

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #316]

The RCC = a religion.
The WTS (or whatever JW's are calling their religion) = a religion.
The LDS = a religion.
Christianity (all the denominations and sects within it) = a religion
Judaism (all the denominations and sects within it) = a religion

In the same post, you also use as something of a defense for your position of religions not being of YHVH - quotes from a set of books composed by and sold through those religions.

This contradiction requires explanation from you Tam.

Q: How is it that this "Voice of Christ" you claim to listen to, is bound by a religious icon [The Bible] to the point where, IF the voice you hear were to tell you something which might contradict the sayings within the religious icon, THEN you would consider said voice to be lying, and therefore 'not the Voice of Christ'?

Which is to say, that this voice you claim to be listening and following after, is subject to the religious dictates that you - on the other hand - condemn as false.

Please explain the apparent contradiction to the reader.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #316]

The RCC = a religion.
The WTS (or whatever JW's are calling their religion) = a religion.
The LDS = a religion.
Christianity (all the denominations and sects within it) = a religion
Judaism (all the denominations and sects within it) = a religion

In the same post, you also use as something of a defense for your position of religions not being of YHVH - quotes from a set of books composed by and sold through those religions.

This contradiction requires explanation from you Tam.

There is no contradiction, William.

You are making assumptions about who composed the books that make up the bible. Religions might use those books, but they were composed by PEOPLE. The RCC did not get up one day and decide to compose the NT; and previous to that no such books existed. The various letters and testimonies included in the NT already existed. John (of Patmos) composed one of them (this one - Revelation - is inspired); Paul composed multiple letters, the disciple Christ loved (an apostle and an eyewitness) composed (at least) one book ("John"); the author of Luke composed at least two books (Luke and Acts), James wrote, Jude wrote, Peter wrote, etc.

We do not have all the letters that people composed (we do not even have all of Paul's letters that were referenced IN the NT).

Q: How is it that this "Voice of Christ" you claim to listen to, is bound by a religious icon [The Bible] to the point where, IF the voice you hear were to tell you something which might contradict the sayings within the religious icon, THEN you would consider said voice to be lying, and therefore 'not the Voice of Christ'?

Christ is not bound by any religious icon; nor even the bible. I have answered this question from you many MANY times.

Which is to say, that this voice you claim to be listening and following after, is subject to the religious dictates that you - on the other hand - condemn as false.

Nope.

Please explain the apparent contradiction to the reader.

There is no contradiction William. Your assumptions are simply incorrect.


Peace again.