The excuse made for Jesus countermanding the law of Moses is the claim that he was "restoring" the law, and one of the arguments put forth for that claim is Jeremiah 8:8 which, in Christian Bibles, is often translated something like this:
How can you say, ‘We are wise, And the Law of the Lord is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. (NASB)
Ironically, this translation is itself unreliable. Here's the verse as it's translated on the Jewish Virtual Library site:
How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
Notice that the verse does not accuse the scribes of having a "lying pen". If you start at the beginning of chapter 8 and read up to this point, you'll see it actually saying that it does no good for the scribes to copy the law down if the people aren't going to follow it.
The "lying pen" line seems to have come along fairly recently (even the KJV has the verse translated correctly). In any case, the Jeremiah 8:8 argument for Jesus' departures from Mosaic law doesn't work.
Jeremiah 8:8
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Athetotheist
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Re: Jeremiah 8:8
Post #11[Replying to Athetotheist in post #10
There are further issues with the mistranslation of Jeremiah 8:8.
If the people are disobeying the law because of "lies of the scribes" but Jehovah condemns them along with the scribes, then he's blaming them for something which isn't their fault [being misled]. That would be unjust and reflect poorly on the character of Jehovah.
If there were "lies of the scribes" in scripture in Jeremiah's time, why doesn't Jehovah set him or any prophet after him the task of pointing the lies out and having them corrected? Why don't any of the post-exilic prophets address the subject during the rebuilding of the temple?
Why does Jesus never say anything about "lies of the scribes" in scripture? Endorsing every jot and tittle of the law and not warning that some of it had been replaced by lies would have been a sinful omission on his part.
It makes no sense to assume that a condemnation of "the lying pen of the scribes" would be mentioned once as a throw-away and never addressed again. The only conclusion which fits the context of Jeremiah 8----and doesn't make Jehovah and his prophets look bad----is that Jeremiah is telling of the scribes copying the law faithfully to no avail because all the people are just ignoring it.
There are further issues with the mistranslation of Jeremiah 8:8.
If the people are disobeying the law because of "lies of the scribes" but Jehovah condemns them along with the scribes, then he's blaming them for something which isn't their fault [being misled]. That would be unjust and reflect poorly on the character of Jehovah.
If there were "lies of the scribes" in scripture in Jeremiah's time, why doesn't Jehovah set him or any prophet after him the task of pointing the lies out and having them corrected? Why don't any of the post-exilic prophets address the subject during the rebuilding of the temple?
Why does Jesus never say anything about "lies of the scribes" in scripture? Endorsing every jot and tittle of the law and not warning that some of it had been replaced by lies would have been a sinful omission on his part.
It makes no sense to assume that a condemnation of "the lying pen of the scribes" would be mentioned once as a throw-away and never addressed again. The only conclusion which fits the context of Jeremiah 8----and doesn't make Jehovah and his prophets look bad----is that Jeremiah is telling of the scribes copying the law faithfully to no avail because all the people are just ignoring it.
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tam
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Re: Jeremiah 8:8
Post #12Peace to you,
"How can you say, "we are wise for we have the law of [the LORD], when actually the lying pen of the scribes has mishandled it."
It sounds to me that He is speaking mainly of the priests and false prophets (but even Christ said that if the blind follow the blind, both fall into a pit - Yet, God sent someone TO heal His people, Israel. He sent His Son.)
And doesn't Christ Himself state that the law of divorce was given to men - not because it was true from the beginning - but because of the hard-heartedness of the people?
Then why would it be called the lying pen OF the scribes? Even in Jeremiah 8, God is speaking about the people whose wound is not healed, but that the priests and "prophets" treat it as if it is not serious.
From the least to the greatest,
all are greedy for gain;
prophets and priests alike,
all practice deceit.
11
They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious.
“Peace, peace,” they say,
when there is no peace.
12
Are they ashamed of their detestable conduct?
No, they have no shame at all;
they do not even know how to blush.
So they will fall among the fallen;
they will be brought down when they are punished,
He is very specifically speaking against the priests and prophets who SHOULD be listening to the Word of God (Christ), but are not... same as in the time that Christ came as a man. Nor is it impossible to listen to God's Word, because here Jeremiah is doing it (as well as Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, etc, etc.)
God is obviously concerned FOR His people (whom the priests and false prophets are not concerned for, again, same as when Christ came as a man); the following is also from Jeremiah:
Since my people are crushed, I am crushed;
I mourn, and horror grips me.
22
Is there no balm in Gilead?
Is there no physician there?
Why then is there no healing
for the wound of my people?
God Himself provided that healing for His people.
Peace again to you.
Did He condemn them? Or were they saying that they were wise because they had the law of [the LORD], and He corrected that misapplication?Athetotheist wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:34 pm [Replying to Athetotheist in post #10
There are further issues with the mistranslation of Jeremiah 8:8.
If the people are disobeying the law because of "lies of the scribes" but Jehovah condemns them along with the scribes, then he's blaming them for something which isn't their fault [being misled]. That would be unjust and reflect poorly on the character of Jehovah.
"How can you say, "we are wise for we have the law of [the LORD], when actually the lying pen of the scribes has mishandled it."
It sounds to me that He is speaking mainly of the priests and false prophets (but even Christ said that if the blind follow the blind, both fall into a pit - Yet, God sent someone TO heal His people, Israel. He sent His Son.)
Jeremiah IS a prophet pointing it out.If there were "lies of the scribes" in scripture in Jeremiah's time, why doesn't Jehovah set him or any prophet after him the task of pointing the lies out and having them corrected? Why don't any of the post-exilic prophets address the subject during the rebuilding of the temple?
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in."Why does Jesus never say anything about "lies of the scribes" in scripture? Endorsing every jot and tittle of the law and not warning that some of it had been replaced by lies would have been a sinful omission on his part.
And doesn't Christ Himself state that the law of divorce was given to men - not because it was true from the beginning - but because of the hard-heartedness of the people?
It makes no sense to assume that a condemnation of "the lying pen of the scribes" would be mentioned once as a throw-away and never addressed again. The only conclusion which fits the context of Jeremiah 8----and doesn't make Jehovah and his prophets look bad----is that Jeremiah is telling of the scribes copying the law faithfully to no avail because all the people are just ignoring it.
Then why would it be called the lying pen OF the scribes? Even in Jeremiah 8, God is speaking about the people whose wound is not healed, but that the priests and "prophets" treat it as if it is not serious.
From the least to the greatest,
all are greedy for gain;
prophets and priests alike,
all practice deceit.
11
They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious.
“Peace, peace,” they say,
when there is no peace.
12
Are they ashamed of their detestable conduct?
No, they have no shame at all;
they do not even know how to blush.
So they will fall among the fallen;
they will be brought down when they are punished,
He is very specifically speaking against the priests and prophets who SHOULD be listening to the Word of God (Christ), but are not... same as in the time that Christ came as a man. Nor is it impossible to listen to God's Word, because here Jeremiah is doing it (as well as Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, etc, etc.)
God is obviously concerned FOR His people (whom the priests and false prophets are not concerned for, again, same as when Christ came as a man); the following is also from Jeremiah:
Since my people are crushed, I am crushed;
I mourn, and horror grips me.
22
Is there no balm in Gilead?
Is there no physician there?
Why then is there no healing
for the wound of my people?
God Himself provided that healing for His people.
Peace again to you.
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Athetotheist
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Re: Jeremiah 8:8
Post #13[Replying to tam in post #12
How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain [to no avail].
Are all of those verses "lies of the scribes"?
If they are, why didn't Jesus ever say so?
If they aren't, how can he have been right about divorce?
You have Jesus correcting "lies of the scribes" in the law, but according to Deut. 30:12 the law "is not in heaven", so no one----not even Jesus----would have to bring it down and clarify it.
Is Deut. 30:12 a "lie of the scribes"?
According to Psalm 12:6, "The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." Was that not enough to keep them from being replaced by a "lying pen"?
Is Psalm 12:6 a "lie of the scribes"?
If there were "lies of the scribes" in the law in Jeremiah's day, are they still there now? If so, what are they? What scriptural passage can you point to and say, "this was written by lying scribes"?
Again, the correct translation:How can you say, "we are wise for we have the law of [the LORD], when actually the lying pen of the scribes has mishandled it."
How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain [to no avail].
Go back and read chapter 7.It sounds to me that He is speaking mainly of the priests and false prophets
Jeremiah is A prophet. Why would he be the only one to point it out?Jeremiah IS a prophet pointing it out.
There's nothing here about having a "lying pen"."But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in."
And doesn't the law itself say that all of it was what Jehovah gave to Moses (Dt. 1:3), that nothing was to be added to it or taken from it (Dt. 4:2), that they were to follow all of it in order to love their God and serve him with all their heart and with all their soul (Dt. 11:13) and in order to do what was right in his eyes (Dt. 13:18)?And doesn't Christ Himself state that the law of divorce was given to men - not because it was true from the beginning - but because of the hard-heartedness of the people?
Are all of those verses "lies of the scribes"?
If they are, why didn't Jesus ever say so?
If they aren't, how can he have been right about divorce?
You have Jesus correcting "lies of the scribes" in the law, but according to Deut. 30:12 the law "is not in heaven", so no one----not even Jesus----would have to bring it down and clarify it.
Is Deut. 30:12 a "lie of the scribes"?
According to Psalm 12:6, "The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." Was that not enough to keep them from being replaced by a "lying pen"?
Is Psalm 12:6 a "lie of the scribes"?
If there were "lies of the scribes" in the law in Jeremiah's day, are they still there now? If so, what are they? What scriptural passage can you point to and say, "this was written by lying scribes"?
