Rules for thee, but not for Me....did Jesus really pay the price?

[Ozzy_O]

Some balk at the idea of eternal damnation. Is eternal hell fair? How can an eternity of punishment be just recompense for only one lifetime of human sin? Particularly if a person was generally decent, how is it fair that living apart from God for only 70 to 100 years results in eternity in hell?

A man sins; some say he is born in sin deserving of eternal hell.

God is fair and just, so He HAS TO insist on full payment for sin.

So a judge sentences you to life in prison as punishment for your crime; for reasons unknown, the judges son agrees to take your place and serve the sentence. Everyone is astonished and celebrates and worships the judge's son for doing such a wonderful deed.

However, after only three days in jail, the judge tells his son, that's ok, you can go, YOU don't have the serve the full sentence; however, had you or I gone to jail, we would rot and die in prison as a fair and just punishment for our crime.

Jesus knew he wasn't gonna stay dead forever and knew he wouldn't be tormented in hell for eternity.

Did Jesus really "pay the price" and take the punishment that sinners deserve?

[JehovahsWitness]

Ummm... So why do we need Jesus then? We all die, so by your logic we all pay the price necessary.

Probably one of the most well known scriptures in the bible answers your question.

JOHN 3:16

For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life

"Jesus died so we don't have to" no longer makes sense

It makes perfect sense. Jesus died so (eventually) people can live forever. Either by way of a resurrection (he brings dead people back to life so they can live forever) ... or (for some) they are born and they will never die at all.

"Jesus died so inherited sin and DEATH can one day be wiped out forever" : Without Jesus everyone dies (and stays dead) and everlasting life (see scripture above) would be impossible for any human. Biblically his RANSOM SACRIFICE (see below gor details) opened the way for death to be a thing of the past.

QUESTION : But wouldn't a person's own death wipe out sin forever?

No. A persons death is seen as paying for the sins they committed, it cannot wipe out sin. Should the come back to life imperfect, their sinning AGAIN an inevitability (necessitating another death). The only way to not die is to wipe out the adamic (inherited) predisposition to sin from each human. Thus the need for a ransom.

JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

DEATH , THE RANSOM SACRIFICE and ... EVERLASTING LIFE

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Ozzy_O in post #1]

God doesn't will that anyone remains in hell, but he will not force them to love him. It is our choice to choose or reject God, to love him or not, to accept whether he incarnated and died for us or not. If those in hell continue to reject God, then it is their choice.

And you don't see this all as a brutal, autocratic and immoral system of dealing with us? Quite apart from any reason to believe it?

[brunumb]

[Replying to Ozzy_O in post #1]

God doesn't will that anyone remains in hell, but he will not force them to love him. It is our choice to choose or reject God, to love him or not, to accept whether he incarnated and died for us or not. If those in hell continue to reject God, then it is their choice.

He won't force you to love him, or accept his puny sacrificial act, but if you don't he will just let you spend eternity suffering in hell. What a sad and pathetic specimen of a deity.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Ozzy_O in post #1]

God doesn't will that anyone remains in hell, but he will not force them to love him. It is our choice to choose or reject God, to love him or not, to accept whether he incarnated and died for us or not. If those in hell continue to reject God, then it is their choice.

He won't force you to love him, or accept his puny sacrificial act, but if you don't he will just let you spend eternity suffering in hell. What a sad and pathetic specimen of a deity.

A hell that apparently he devised before he even started wadding the Big bang together. Cue: 'It's all going to come Good in the end, so it's all Good'. I've seen that one before.

The question then is: 'This is really the best that God could do?' It comes down to Faith; Faith that this is all true, because otherwise, one would Logically have to opt for the theory that it's a man - made human religion and doesn't make sense, and that requires Faith that the God of Christianity is real. Then one could have Faith that this all makes sense to God if not to us. With 'God can do as He likes" in reserve, but not all can bring themselves to bite that particular Bullet - it HAS to be claimed to be Good.

It absolutely is all based on Godfaith as a given or it does not stack up.

[Shem Yoshi]

That is a great question, and the way I have heard eternity described by multiple sources, is that it is an instant in time, one NDE said when he died he knew what eternity was, opposed to living it one moment at a time he was one with eternity.

None who is able to report an NDE has died. Nothing they experience is evidence of life after death. Beyond that, nothing they report should be taken as a valid prediction of what the future will hold. Those who ingest LSD also have visions. None of these should be taken as authoritative information about reality.


Tcg

I completely disagree. Just because they haven't died completely does not invalidate the evidence and where it leads. Taking LSD might make you see trails and heighten sense of colors, NDE's people meet their dead loved one, experience an after life, meet God, have judgments on their lifes experiences, have OBE's. And they are medically dead most of the time.. We should let the evdience point us to where it leads. It is totally reasonable to believe NDE's are experiencing death like things.

"Death like things" are not death. NDEers do not experience an afterlife. They experience hallucinations which are the result of the extra DMT the body produces during trauma. The psychedelic effects of DMT are in fact quite similar to those of LSD and are quite clearly the cause of these experiences. This is in fact were the evidence leads.


Tcg

I'll let people judge for themselves I dont even feel like I need to have this debate.

You don't if you can't provide evidence of the afterlife that are stronger than discussing "death like things." Now, if you want to dispute the fact that our bodies produce DMT and that DMT is a strong hallucinogenic then perhaps you won't give up just yet.


Tcg

No I would rather not debate it right now, maybe some other time. But it is totally reasonable to believe NDE's are evidence of what happens at death

[TRANSPONDER]

That is a great question, and the way I have heard eternity described by multiple sources, is that it is an instant in time, one NDE said when he died he knew what eternity was, opposed to living it one moment at a time he was one with eternity.

None who is able to report an NDE has died. Nothing they experience is evidence of life after death. Beyond that, nothing they report should be taken as a valid prediction of what the future will hold. Those who ingest LSD also have visions. None of these should be taken as authoritative information about reality.


Tcg

I completely disagree. Just because they haven't died completely does not invalidate the evidence and where it leads. Taking LSD might make you see trails and heighten sense of colors, NDE's people meet their dead loved one, experience an after life, meet God, have judgments on their lifes experiences, have OBE's. And they are medically dead most of the time.. We should let the evdience point us to where it leads. It is totally reasonable to believe NDE's are experiencing death like things.

"Death like things" are not death. NDEers do not experience an afterlife. They experience hallucinations which are the result of the extra DMT the body produces during trauma. The psychedelic effects of DMT are in fact quite similar to those of LSD and are quite clearly the cause of these experiences. This is in fact were the evidence leads.


Tcg

I'll let people judge for themselves I dont even feel like I need to have this debate.

You don't if you can't provide evidence of the afterlife that are stronger than discussing "death like things." Now, if you want to dispute the fact that our bodies produce DMT and that DMT is a strong hallucinogenic then perhaps you won't give up just yet.


Tcg

No I would rather not debate it right now, maybe some other time. But it is totally reasonable to believe NDE's are evidence of what happens at death

It's also totally irrelevant to the topic, or indeed to anything but medical journals.

[Miles]

Did Jesus really "pay the price" and take the punishment that sinners deserve?

Biblically speaking the penalty for sin is death, not eternal torture.

EZEKIEL 18:20 - New King James Version
The soul who sins shall die. [...]

Then what is the "everlasting torment" or "eternal punishment" spoken of in Matthew?

Matthew 25:46
(WYC)
"And these shall go into everlasting torment; but the just men shall go into everlasting life.”

(GW)
“These people will go away into eternal punishment, but those with God’s approval will go into eternal life.”.”

.

[Tcg]

That is a great question, and the way I have heard eternity described by multiple sources, is that it is an instant in time, one NDE said when he died he knew what eternity was, opposed to living it one moment at a time he was one with eternity.

None who is able to report an NDE has died. Nothing they experience is evidence of life after death. Beyond that, nothing they report should be taken as a valid prediction of what the future will hold. Those who ingest LSD also have visions. None of these should be taken as authoritative information about reality.


Tcg

I completely disagree. Just because they haven't died completely does not invalidate the evidence and where it leads. Taking LSD might make you see trails and heighten sense of colors, NDE's people meet their dead loved one, experience an after life, meet God, have judgments on their lifes experiences, have OBE's. And they are medically dead most of the time.. We should let the evdience point us to where it leads. It is totally reasonable to believe NDE's are experiencing death like things.

"Death like things" are not death. NDEers do not experience an afterlife. They experience hallucinations which are the result of the extra DMT the body produces during trauma. The psychedelic effects of DMT are in fact quite similar to those of LSD and are quite clearly the cause of these experiences. This is in fact were the evidence leads.


Tcg

I'll let people judge for themselves I dont even feel like I need to have this debate.

You don't if you can't provide evidence of the afterlife that are stronger than discussing "death like things." Now, if you want to dispute the fact that our bodies produce DMT and that DMT is a strong hallucinogenic then perhaps you won't give up just yet.


Tcg

No I would rather not debate it right now, maybe some other time. But it is totally reasonable to believe NDE's are evidence of what happens at death

Not if you are claiming it as evidence of an afterlife. None of those who explain the hallucinations they experienced during their N(NEAR)DEs know what happens "at death" because they didn't experience death. They experienced the effects of trauma of their bodies and the production of DMT as a result of that trauma.



Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

Matthew 25:46
(WYC)
"And these shall go into everlasting torment; but the just men shall go into everlasting life.”

The word torment / torture has no place in Matthew 25:46 and almost all bible translations render the word "punishment"* . The word used in Matthew stems from "pruning" as in cutting off branches from a tree, the idea being these ones are forever "cut off" from life.

[ * ]There is a Greek word (basanizo) used at Revelation 20:10 which archaically refered to penal confinement (imprisonment). The link came because jailers would often beat or torment their prisoners. This ancient meaning (torment= prison/jail) is usually quite lost to the english reader

The punishment for the incorrigibly wicked is death ; since the punishment will never be lifted/removed it is indeed an "everlasting punishment".



Various Translations

ew International Version
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

New Living Translation
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

English Standard Version
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Berean Standard Bible
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Berean Literal Bible
And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life."

King James Bible
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

New King James Version
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

New American Standard Bible
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

NASB 1995
“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

NASB 1977
“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Amplified Bible
Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”

Christian Standard Bible
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

American Standard Version
And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And these will go into eternal torture, and the righteous into eternal life.”

Contemporary English Version
Then Jesus said, "Those people will be punished forever. But the ones who pleased God will have eternal life."

Douay-Rheims Bible
And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Good News Translation
These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."

International Standard Version
These people will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life."

Literal Standard Version
And these will go away into continuous punishment, but the righteous into continuous life.”

New American Bible
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

NET Bible
And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

New Revised Standard Version
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

New Heart English Bible
These will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life."

Weymouth New Testament
"And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."

World English Bible
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

BIBLE "HELL", THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD and ...HELLFIRE TORTURE DEBUNKED

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Ozzy_O in post #1]

God doesn't will that anyone remains in hell, but he will not force them to love him. It is our choice to choose or reject God, to love him or not, to accept whether he incarnated and died for us or not. If those in hell continue to reject God, then it is their choice.

He won't force you to love him, or accept his puny sacrificial act, but if you don't he will just let you spend eternity suffering in hell. What a sad and pathetic specimen of a deity.

You choose to remain in hell. He is not going to force you to leave. You have the choice and power to leave.