Rules for thee, but not for Me....did Jesus really pay the price?

[Ozzy_O]

Some balk at the idea of eternal damnation. Is eternal hell fair? How can an eternity of punishment be just recompense for only one lifetime of human sin? Particularly if a person was generally decent, how is it fair that living apart from God for only 70 to 100 years results in eternity in hell?

A man sins; some say he is born in sin deserving of eternal hell.

God is fair and just, so He HAS TO insist on full payment for sin.

So a judge sentences you to life in prison as punishment for your crime; for reasons unknown, the judges son agrees to take your place and serve the sentence. Everyone is astonished and celebrates and worships the judge's son for doing such a wonderful deed.

However, after only three days in jail, the judge tells his son, that's ok, you can go, YOU don't have the serve the full sentence; however, had you or I gone to jail, we would rot and die in prison as a fair and just punishment for our crime.

Jesus knew he wasn't gonna stay dead forever and knew he wouldn't be tormented in hell for eternity.

Did Jesus really "pay the price" and take the punishment that sinners deserve?

[brunumb]

A lot of them have stories of leaving their bodies and seeing things that only someone could see if they were out of their own body.

Experiments have been done to test that and as far as I can tell none have been verified to date. All we have are unsupported anecdotes.

[Shem Yoshi]

What do you even mean by "super-normal"? Is that some way to skirt around the negative connotations of using the term "super-natural"?

It is the term the medical journal i referenced used.

I missed the cite - what journal was it? Link?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/

Near-death experiences (NDEs) are reported by about 17% of those who nearly die.

It's literally the first sentence of the first paragraph in the introduction.

"Nearly" works for hand grenades, but not for your position regarding death. In NDEs the data shows a flood of electrochemical actions, and not a flood of death.

The question is, how do you know they are not dead and then revived?

Because death only happens when life has left the building.

In fact many of their own stories the people are given a choice, to go back to life or stay where they are, and the ones that are here to tell about it chose to go back to life.

Bring em here for cross examination.

How do you know they arent dead and then revived?

I'm sentient.

Lots of them have been shown to have no activity in the brain, nor the body, not even electrical activity that thought in the brain goes off of.

Please present pertinent medical records for analysis.

A lot of them have stories of leaving their bodies and seeing things that only someone could see if they were out of their own body.

Bring em here for cross examination.

You should go back and read that article I linked, or my post #41 for a quicker read of quotes from the article.

I dont really think you are answering the philosophical or scientific implications of the question i pose to you, but making it a game of semantics of people choosing the word "near death"...

What reason or evidence is there that these people arent dying and being revived, that isnt just a play on the semantics of words?

[Shem Yoshi]

A lot of them have stories of leaving their bodies and seeing things that only someone could see if they were out of their own body.

Experiments have been done to test that and as far as I can tell none have been verified to date. All we have are unsupported anecdotes.

Sorry but the medical journal of a peer reviewed article that I linked in post 41 suggest otherwise

[Miles]

One chance in 812,500? ...

I cannot respond since I have no idea what this is referring to.


Sorry,


JEHOVAHS WITNESS

According to this site 117 billion people have inhabited Earth. Divide this by the 144,000 seats available in heaven and the odds are 1 in 812,500 that a person will get a chance at one of them. However, further research says that such a chance only applies to Christians, which means that billions upon billions of people never had a chance in the first place. So my calculations need some serious revision. Sorry about that.


.

[brunumb]

A lot of them have stories of leaving their bodies and seeing things that only someone could see if they were out of their own body.

Experiments have been done to test that and as far as I can tell none have been verified to date. All we have are unsupported anecdotes.

Sorry but the medical journal of a peer reviewed article that I linked in post 41 suggest otherwise

Considering NDEs from both a medical perspective and logically, it should not be possible for unconscious people to often report highly lucid experiences that are clear and logically structured. Most NDErs report supernormal consciousness at the time of their NDEs.

Unconscious people do not make any of these reports. Recovered patients do that, so it is impossible to know in what specific period of time the experiences actually occurred and the memories formed in the brain. Another issue is that all of the experiences are self-reported descriptions. We have no way to test the accuracy of the descriptions pr what other factors may have influenced them. The only valid conclusion is that some people have these experiences, but what exactly they are and what causes them is very much open to conjecture. Concluding that there is an afterlife is a very huge leap of faith.

[Shem Yoshi]

A lot of them have stories of leaving their bodies and seeing things that only someone could see if they were out of their own body.

Experiments have been done to test that and as far as I can tell none have been verified to date. All we have are unsupported anecdotes.

Sorry but the medical journal of a peer reviewed article that I linked in post 41 suggest otherwise

Considering NDEs from both a medical perspective and logically, it should not be possible for unconscious people to often report highly lucid experiences that are clear and logically structured. Most NDErs report supernormal consciousness at the time of their NDEs.

Unconscious people do not make any of these reports. Recovered patients do that, so it is impossible to know in what specific period of time the experiences actually occurred and the memories formed in the brain. Another issue is that all of the experiences are self-reported descriptions. We have no way to test the accuracy of the descriptions pr what other factors may have influenced them. The only valid conclusion is that some people have these experiences, but what exactly they are and what causes them is very much open to conjecture. Concluding that there is an afterlife is a very huge leap of faith.

Well you could take it a step further and question your entire existence if you wish. Maybe there is no reliable sources at all. like Cartesian Skepticism says, Global doubt.

[brunumb]

The only valid conclusion is that some people have these experiences, but what exactly they are and what causes them is very much open to conjecture. Concluding that there is an afterlife is a very huge leap of faith.

Well you could take it a step further and question your entire existence if you wish. Maybe there is no reliable sources at all. like Cartesian Skepticism says, Global doubt.

Your peer reviewed article basically reaches the same conclusion that I did.

[JoeyKnothead]

You should go back and read that article I linked, or my post #41 for a quicker read of quotes from the article.

And I don't think you understand just what all it takes to be dead.

I dont really think you are answering the philosophical or scientific implications of the question i pose to you, but making it a game of semantics of people choosing the word "near death"...

What reason or evidence is there that these people arent dying and being revived, that isnt just a play on the semantics of words?

Because death is the final act of the living.

If anyone here is playing semantics, it must surely be the one who wants to say "near" no longer means near, and "death" no longer means death.

What's the more medically, scientifically sound conclusion here?

That dead folks get fed up with being it?

Or that when near to death the brain's apt to start acting up?

[JehovahsWitness]

One chance in 812,500? ...

I cannot respond since I have no idea what this is referring to.


Sorry,


JEHOVAHS WITNESS

According to this site 117 billion people have inhabited Earth. Divide this by the 144,000 seats available in heaven and the odds are 1 in 812,500 that a person will get a chance at one of them.

Are you under the impresssion that the bible limits the number of people that will get everlasting life to 144,000 places in heaven? If so that is not a biblical teaching. I think most people that post on this forum know that Jehovahs Witnesses do not believe heaven is the only place individuals will be afforded the chance to live forever,



JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to

SIN, SALVATION and ...REPENTANCE

[TRANSPONDER]

A lot of them have stories of leaving their bodies and seeing things that only someone could see if they were out of their own body.

Experiments have been done to test that and as far as I can tell none have been verified to date. All we have are unsupported anecdotes.

Sorry but the medical journal of a peer reviewed article that I linked in post 41 suggest otherwise

Considering NDEs from both a medical perspective and logically, it should not be possible for unconscious people to often report highly lucid experiences that are clear and logically structured. Most NDErs report supernormal consciousness at the time of their NDEs.

Unconscious people do not make any of these reports. Recovered patients do that, so it is impossible to know in what specific period of time the experiences actually occurred and the memories formed in the brain. Another issue is that all of the experiences are self-reported descriptions. We have no way to test the accuracy of the descriptions pr what other factors may have influenced them. The only valid conclusion is that some people have these experiences, but what exactly they are and what causes them is very much open to conjecture. Concluding that there is an afterlife is a very huge leap of faith.

Well you could take it a step further and question your entire existence if you wish. Maybe there is no reliable sources at all. like Cartesian Skepticism says, Global doubt.

We've been here before. Trying to claim anecdotal evidence as good as verified evidence. Unexplained occurrences being used to try to prove God, the Bible or a soul. So far none have done any of it. the NDE effect is still being researched and it is far from clear that an actual leaving the body is involved at all, let alone a vision of an afterlife.

Even if it was, so, exactly, what? It would be interesting to know that we have a soul and there is an afterlife, but then, how would that alter the way we live, consider organised religions or how we argue here? Hint, the existence of a soul or an afterlife does not prove a god, never mind a particular one.

I'm not dismissing NDE's or OBE's, but they really don't get us anywhere in terms of the religion debate.

And of course, if we opt for doubting everything and considering that there are no reliable sources, that would make further debate pointless.