Forced EVs

[nobspeople]

Many countries are moving to no internal combustion engine (ICE) car sales by XYZ date. California is moving to that as is Canada.
As the price of many homes are too high for many people (that's if they can find one and if they win the bidding war), this means many won't have a reliable place (ie garage) to charge their EV.

4.6 million new apartments are needed in the USA by 2030
https://www.naahq.org/news-publications ... ir%20needs.

Somewhere between 4% & 24% live in apartments in the USA (state dependent)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/798 ... state-usa/

This means 76%-94% live in houses, but how many of those houses have garages? And how many of those garages have access to electricity for charging?

I'm all for saving the environment, but what about those that don't have access to means to charge EVs? Is this the death of the road trip? In the USA, most employers don't give their employees 3-4 weeks vacation per year. If it takes you two days to get from New York to Miami, then two days to get back, that's half your week's vacation gone.

For discussion:
At this time, is the forced removal of ICE, replacing them with EVs, too soon?
Is there something else behind this other than saving the planet?
Is the charging infrastructure ready for this?
What about those who, when the time comes, have no place to charge their EVs?

[The Barbarian]

I don't know much about what it takes to design and manufacture an EV. It seems though it would be easier than ICEs. Just thinking of the motor versus an ICE. Wouldn't an electric motor have only one moving part? I'm not sure if EVs have transmissions either. It just seems that a bare bones EV could be produced rather economically. I'm sure there are aspects I'm overlooking.

They are a lot simpler, more reliable, and cheaper to fix. Batteries are an issue, but the price will drop rapidly as more come into use. I'm thinking they won't be more efficient at energy use for some years until the infrastructure and technology matures.

[oldbadger]

They are a lot simpler, more reliable, and cheaper to fix. Batteries are an issue, but the price will drop rapidly as more come into use. I'm thinking they won't be more efficient at energy use for some years until the infrastructure and technology matures.

I've had an EV vespa scooter for 1.5 years. It's great for short distance travel. I visit a website for owners of these EVs and I have learned a lot from other owner's mistakes.

Very fast charging of Lithiums can reduce their lifespan and 50watt charging is really not a good idea. And so EVs should be used within their full-charge range so that they can be slow charged at 10 or 5 watts.
Battery swapping points for EVs are not a good idea because a driver could find that their exchanged battery is sub standard.
Battery swapping points for EVs are unsuitable for most EV cars because their batteries are built in to them.
Lithium fires are dreadful and our fire brigades are having trouble in controlling these.
Lithiums should not be run below 20% of their total capacity because this can damage them, especially if they are super-fast recharged.
Freezing weather seems to reduce Lithium performance and range.

And so at this time a big-battery hybrid might be a better bet. These can cruise at lower speeds (30mph) for up to 40 miles and so all city and town travel can be clean, and for distance motorway travel the ICE kicks in for recharging and high speeds, so a hybrid can easily reach the distances that are giving EVs great trouble. And hybrids don't need a home charging or any charging points.

[The Barbarian]

They are a lot simpler, more reliable, and cheaper to fix. Batteries are an issue, but the price will drop rapidly as more come into use. I'm thinking they won't be more efficient at energy use for some years until the infrastructure and technology matures.

I've had an EV vespa scooter for 1.5 years. It's great for short distance travel. I visit a website for owners of these EVs and I have learned a lot from other owner's mistakes.

Very fast charging of Lithiums can reduce their lifespan and 50watt charging is really not a good idea. And so EVs should be used within their full-charge range so that they can be slow charged at 10 or 5 watts.
Battery swapping points for EVs are not a good idea because a driver could find that their exchanged battery is sub standard.
Battery swapping points for EVs are unsuitable for most EV cars because their batteries are built in to them.
Lithium fires are dreadful and our fire brigades are having trouble in controlling these.
Lithiums should not be run below 20% of their total capacity because this can damage them, especially if they are super-fast recharged.
Freezing weather seems to reduce Lithium performance and range.

And so at this time a big-battery hybrid might be a better bet. These can cruise at lower speeds (30mph) for up to 40 miles and so all city and town travel can be clean, and for distance motorway travel the ICE kicks in for recharging and high speeds, so a hybrid can easily reach the distances that are giving EVs great trouble. And hybrids don't need a home charging or any charging points.

All sensible considerations. I think hybrid vehicles might be the right transition until the technology improves.

[oldbadger]

All sensible considerations. I think hybrid vehicles might be the right transition until the technology improves.

Yes, I think so as well.
My neighbour has an EV that can travel up to 40-45 miles on its battery, but its speed is limited to about 30mph during that time. The ICE kicks in as the speed increases, presumably as the car leaves city or town.

If a manufacturer would produce a big battery car with longer range and higher speed ability and with a smaller (500cc?) ICE for in-car charging, then that might fill the gap for a vehicle with longer range. A majority of the recharging would take place at home, the ICE would be there just for 'charging at distance'.

This is going to be a very interesting time for greener ideas, maybe battery manufacture can become greener as well?

[AgnosticBoy]

For discussion:
At this time, is the forced removal of ICE, replacing them with EVs, too soon?

It is too soon if we are not ready and it would wreck our economy. A similar point can be made about fossil fuel vs. green energy. SOme environmentalists may say that we must stop all fossil fuels based production for energy because we must save the planet now. The problem is that we don't currently have the resources to implement that policy now. If we stopped fossil fuel production or slowed it down, then we risk gas prices going up and harming the consumer and then the economy.

Is there something else behind this other than saving the planet?

Even if there are ulterior motives, but the idea of clean energy is still good. I'm only against it when it comes to some of the details regarding how or when to implement the policy on a large scale.

[thomasdixon]

Even if there are ulterior motives, but the idea of clean energy is still good. I'm only against it when it comes to some of the details regarding how or when to implement the policy on a large scale.

Summary Table as of 2017
Oil Reserves
1,650,585,140,000 barrels
Oil Consumption
35,442,913,090
barrels per year
97,103,871 barrels per day
Reserves/Consumption
47 (years left)
https://www.worldometers.info/oil/
(Data shown in the table is for 2016. Counter shows current estimate.)
I am bewildered to watch people jump up and down to create renewables because of climate change when at the same time oil reserves are running out too.
I find it ironic that both goals have the same end in mind.
At current consumption, it will be all used up. What next?

[oldbadger]

Even if there are ulterior motives, but the idea of clean energy is still good. I'm only against it when it comes to some of the details regarding how or when to implement the policy on a large scale.

Summary Table as of 2017
Oil Reserves
1,650,585,140,000 barrels
Oil Consumption
35,442,913,090
barrels per year
97,103,871 barrels per day
Reserves/Consumption
47 (years left)
https://www.worldometers.info/oil/
(Data shown in the table is for 2016. Counter shows current estimate.)
I am bewildered to watch people jump up and down to create renewables because of climate change when at the same time oil reserves are running out too.
I find it ironic that both goals have the same end in mind.
At current consumption, it will be all used up. What next?

Yes, but all the above is irrelevant where a town or city wants cleaner air. EVs and hybrids are less expensive to run through towns and in some cities they are all that is allowed.

On the other hand, if you live way out from such places and need to travel hundreds of miles, then IC engines and hybrids are the best.

[boatsnguitars]

Many countries are moving to no internal combustion engine (ICE) car sales by XYZ date. California is moving to that as is Canada.
As the price of many homes are too high for many people (that's if they can find one and if they win the bidding war), this means many won't have a reliable place (ie garage) to charge their EV.

4.6 million new apartments are needed in the USA by 2030
https://www.naahq.org/news-publications ... ir%20needs.

Somewhere between 4% & 24% live in apartments in the USA (state dependent)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/798 ... state-usa/

This means 76%-94% live in houses, but how many of those houses have garages? And how many of those garages have access to electricity for charging?

I'm all for saving the environment, but what about those that don't have access to means to charge EVs? Is this the death of the road trip? In the USA, most employers don't give their employees 3-4 weeks vacation per year. If it takes you two days to get from New York to Miami, then two days to get back, that's half your week's vacation gone.

For discussion:
At this time, is the forced removal of ICE, replacing them with EVs, too soon?
Is there something else behind this other than saving the planet?
Is the charging infrastructure ready for this?
What about those who, when the time comes, have no place to charge their EVs?

I think this is an archaic way of thinking about EV's, and ICE;s.

We are in an exponential sea change in technology. It's not up to use anymore, it's the algorythm.

[oldbadger]

We are in an exponential sea change in technology. It's not up to use anymore, it's the algorythm.

Changes in our weather are adjusting a lot of minds towards greener lifestyles.
Sea level rise is what will cause more determined 'green policies', but sadly, by the time these become noticeable it will be too late.

I don't think that humanity will move far enough or quickly enough to avoid the tragedies that are looming, and our development of green battery production is very slow, and fraught with dreadful risks that we haven't prepared for. Lithium battery fires are horrendous!

I have an EV and have cut heating and travel down but already have begun to see early and unforeseen problems arising. EVs are initiating a whole new kind of crime and loss as well...... a recent development is the theft of charging cables, many of these worth hundreds of pounds and containing lucrative metal weights. Distance travel in EVs is hopelessly difficult at this time. Careless use of Lithiums is going to shorten their life and since they can be worth 25-30% of a new vehicle's cost it won't be long before the public has a healthy mistrust of second hand vehicles. etc etc.

We must go green, but oh boy have we ever got unforseen problems coming over the horizon......

[boatsnguitars]

Many countries are moving to no internal combustion engine (ICE) car sales by XYZ date. California is moving to that as is Canada.
As the price of many homes are too high for many people (that's if they can find one and if they win the bidding war), this means many won't have a reliable place (ie garage) to charge their EV.

4.6 million new apartments are needed in the USA by 2030
https://www.naahq.org/news-publications ... ir%20needs.

Somewhere between 4% & 24% live in apartments in the USA (state dependent)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/798 ... state-usa/

This means 76%-94% live in houses, but how many of those houses have garages? And how many of those garages have access to electricity for charging?

I'm all for saving the environment, but what about those that don't have access to means to charge EVs? Is this the death of the road trip? In the USA, most employers don't give their employees 3-4 weeks vacation per year. If it takes you two days to get from New York to Miami, then two days to get back, that's half your week's vacation gone.

For discussion:
At this time, is the forced removal of ICE, replacing them with EVs, too soon?
Is there something else behind this other than saving the planet?
Is the charging infrastructure ready for this?
What about those who, when the time comes, have no place to charge their EVs?

Why do you feel it's a right, or that it's right to have an internal combustion engine? I find it an odd thing to think you deserve, since there is no guarantee from the State that you can have it. You can always get a horse and carriage. We don't have the right to have whatever we want.

Should we complain that we can't own a rocket car? A car powered by orphans? A nuclear powered car? What kind of entitlement do you think we are owed to own whatever we feel like having?

It's an odd impulse, IMO. I don't think we are owed anything, and if there is a global reason to reduce carbon - so my kids can inherit a decent planet, I'm all in. I don't think I'm the exception, and I don't think anyone else should feel they are exceptions - the system breaks down. Even billionaires should follow suit.