Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[Miles]

Sorry, but god has already blown his "In a short time" promise. Three thousand years is not a "short time."

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Everything, including time is relative. When we compare it to eternity, 3,000 years is "short", it depends on how one looks at it.

Yup, and when talking to someone, say your children, would you phrase something as you understood a word's meaning or how they understand its meaning? If you're smart you'd put in a context they understood, not how you understand it. Why? Because, for one thing, you don't want to mislead them.


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[myth-one.com]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #2638]

Satan is not working FOR Jehovah. He is working against Him.

YHVH has no adversary.

Before the millennium, God sends an angel to bound, shut up, and seal Satan so that he could not deceive the nations during the millennium:

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Following the millennium, Satan is released from prison, starts deceiving again, rallies his troops, and is defeated by God:

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Satan will then spend eternity in the lake of fire and brimstone:

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Seems like two adversaries to me.

Certainly not the best of friends!

[William]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #2652]

Seems like two adversaries to me.

Certainly not the best of friends!

Opinion noted. Still, this does not prove that YHVH has any adversary.

Satan is not YHVH's adversary. The common thread throughout the biblical storyline has it that Satan is Humanities adversary.

Those Bible quotes make it appear that there is a contest, conflict, or dispute going on between these two entities, which overall suggests that YHVH has Self-Doubt - which I myself do not think YHVH has...ever had...but admit that, if YHVH was a 'God in the making" then yes, self-doubt could accompany that process.

[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #2652]

Seems like two adversaries to me.

Certainly not the best of friends!

Opinion noted. Still, this does not prove that YHVH has any adversary.

Satan is not YHVH's adversary. The common thread throughout the biblical storyline has it that Satan is Humanities adversary.

Those Bible quotes make it appear that there is a contest, conflict, or dispute going on between these two entities, which overall suggests that YHVH has Self-Doubt - which I myself do not think YHVH has...ever had...but admit that, if YHVH was a 'God in the making" then yes, self-doubt could accompany that process.

Satan walked among "sons of God" (Job 2:1). Creation of matter required a combination of darkness/chaos and light/order. First came darkness, then came light (Genesis 1). Satan is part of God's plan to create materia creatures of moral strength and character, which requires an adversary. Unfortunately for the "many" they will choose the wide path to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13), the path of darkness, the path laid out by the "false prophets" (Matthew 7:15).

[JehovahsWitness]

Yup, and when talking to someone, say your children, would you phrase something as you understood a word's meaning or how they understand its meaning?

There are no words in the bible that cannot be understood; further good parenting involves more than just using understandable vocabulary, it involves helping children accept and adjust to the reality of the world they live in. The bible's stated purpose is for humans to understand (to the degree possible ) the mind of God; God explains his thoughts are higher than ours and (in words we can understand) how he sees things. Parents help children adjust their limited perspective all the time, its part of education:

For a four year old daddy going on a business trip for a week might as well be "daddy's gone forever" ; they dont have a strong grasp of the abstract, so the future seem very far away*. What do the parents do? Do they say "Yes you should go into grieving because you feel a week is a long time" ? Or do they say "I know it feels like he's never coming back and you're sad but it really isn't so long and he'll be back before you know it." In other words, explain what "a week" really means in relation to an adults concept of time (a reletively short time period) and reassure them it isn't long (even if relative to the life of a child it is indeed a long time).

We are all little children to God; and God has kindly explained to us that what seems long to us, really isn't long at all. All part of divine education.



JW

[Miles]

Yup, and when talking to someone, say your children, would you phrase something as you understood a word's meaning or how they understand its meaning?

There are no words in the bible that cannot be understood;

So what does σκύβαλον (translit. skybalon) mean in Philippians 3:8?

Depending on the Bible one uses I found it can mean

"dung" 12 times
"refuse" 4 times
"garbage" 10 times
"rubbish" 13 times
"filth" 2 times
"trash" 6 times
"worthless" 2 times
"less than nothing" 3 times
"manure" 1 time
"waste" 1 time
"dirt" 1 time
"sewer trash" 1 time.

Think they're all synonyms? They aren't. So it's quite evident there are words in the bible that are not understood well at all. And back when god was speaking why would anyone think he meant 3,000+ years by "short time," rather than "in a few years, or at most a life time or so"? Unless they were incurably obtuse they would not.

further good parenting involves more than just using understandable vocabulary,

But when concepts are passed on with words, those words must be understandable, and that means within the the vocabulary of a child. Not some arcane or special meaning that's been adopted by an adult.

We are all little children to God; and God has kindly explained to us that what seems long to us, really isn't long at all. All part of divine education.

Did god do it with words you "little children" understood? I believe he did. His use of "short time" meant just what you would consider it to be, and not his 3,000+ years. As I said before; Sorry, but god has already blown his "In a short time" promise. Three thousand years is not a "short time."

As has been said in several ways, when speaking to an audience: "Connect With Your Audience By Speaking Their Language," which I believe the god of your Bible was doing. (my emphasis) But as it turned out his promise was as hollow as a ping-pong ball.

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[onewithhim]

There are millions if not billions of humble people that will live in Paradise on this earth. People that are physical, just like us.

Are they going to be members of the kingdom of God?

Show me where it says that men will die within 120 years.

Genesis 6:3
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

We physical people here on Earth will always be a part of the Kingdom, as we are citizens of that government. The 144,000 bought from the earth make up the government for that Kingdom. The only people that go to heaven are ones who will rule with Christ, and they will rule over the "great crowd," or, the "great multitude" that come out of the Great Tribulation, plus all those who are resurrected back to earth.

I believe that bit about men living to 120 years had to do with the time Noah had to prepare for the Flood, before this great deluge came upon the earth. It did not have to do with a man's life span.

[2ndpillar2]

There are millions if not billions of humble people that will live in Paradise on this earth. People that are physical, just like us.

Are they going to be members of the kingdom of God?

Show me where it says that men will die within 120 years.

Genesis 6:3
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

We physical people here on Earth will always be a part of the Kingdom, as we are citizens of that government. The 144,000 bought from the earth make up the government for that Kingdom. The only people that go to heaven are ones who will rule with Christ, and they will rule over the "great crowd," or, the "great multitude" that come out of the Great Tribulation, plus all those who are resurrected back to earth.

I believe that bit about men living to 120 years had to do with the time Noah had to prepare for the Flood, before this great deluge came upon the earth. It did not have to do with a man's life span.

Apparently the 120 years had to do with "My spirit having to strive with man". On the other hand, "the Word of God" (Revelation 19:13) will be reigning over the "nations"/Gentiles, or at least those who survived the great Tribulation, with a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15), which will include shutting off the rains, if they do not bend the knee (Zechariah 14:17). Someone will still have to "strive with man", and that being the "Word of God". And yes, the "many" will be part of the kingdoms of the 7 headed beast of Revelation 13:1, until those kingdoms have been all "crushed" (Daniel 2:44-45). As for the 144,000, they will be of the sons of Israel/Jacob (Revelation 7:4), and they will simply be marked on earth for protection from the "locusts" which are to "come upon the earth" (Revelation 9:3).

[2ndpillar2]

Yup, and when talking to someone, say your children, would you phrase something as you understood a word's meaning or how they understand its meaning?

There are no words in the bible that cannot be understood;

So what does σκύβαλον (translit. skybalon) mean in Philippians 3:8?

Depending on the Bible one uses I found it can mean

"dung" 12 times
"refuse" 4 times
"garbage" 10 times
"rubbish" 13 times
"filth" 2 times
"trash" 6 times
"worthless" 2 times
"less than nothing" 3 times
"manure" 1 time
"waste" 1 time
"dirt" 1 time
"sewer trash" 1 time.

Think they're all synonyms? They aren't. So it's quite evident there are words in the bible that are not understood well at all. And back when god was speaking why would anyone think he meant 3,000+ years by "short time," rather than "in a few years, or at most a life time or so"? Unless they were incurably obtuse they would not.

further good parenting involves more than just using understandable vocabulary,

But when concepts are passed on with words, those words must be understandable, and that means within the the vocabulary of a child. Not some arcane or special meaning that's been adopted by an adult.

We are all little children to God; and God has kindly explained to us that what seems long to us, really isn't long at all. All part of divine education.

Did god do it with words you "little children" understood? I believe he did. His use of "short time" meant just what you would consider it to be, and not his 3,000+ years. As I said before; Sorry, but god has already blown his "In a short time" promise. Three thousand years is not a "short time."

As has been said in several ways, when speaking to an audience: "Connect With Your Audience By Speaking Their Language," which I believe the god of your Bible was doing. (my emphasis) But as it turned out his promise was as hollow as a ping-pong ball.

.

As for timing, the one thing 2 Peter 3:8 got right was that with "the Lord one day is as a thousand years". As for when the LORD will "return" and "heal us" (Judah and Ephraim/Israel (Hosea 5:14-15), that will be after 2 days (2000 years) after "I will go away" (Hosea 6:1-2). As for "understanding" the "kingdom" that was given in parables, so that only those with ears to hear and eyes to see could understand (Matthew 13:11-13) and is limited to mostly the "little children" who have been anointed. (1 John 2:27-28).

[William]

Back when god was speaking why would anyone think he meant 3,000+ years by "short time," rather than "in a few years, or at most a life time or so"?

Q: Where in the Bible does the God YHVH say he will "go away" or "come back"?

As to promises of this nature, as is evident, the Christian belief in the "return of Christ" is a belief which obviously changed from expectation of an immanent event which - when it failed to occur - became a promise which could be fulfilled "any time" therefore allowing all sorts of extra features to be added around that belief, before - centuries later when Rome established Christianity - the collection of writings were bound together and sealed as "complete" so that no more could be added.

Within those pages that were added, there is plenty of room for personal interpretation and disagreement depending upon ones particular desired outcome plus - with the "no man knows the day or hour", granted Christianity an indefinite period of time in which to peddle the wares, meantime the world goes on as it does, irrespective of what Christians believe or do not believe.

Until such a day happens, I see no logical reason why one has to believe Jesus will return, simply because "it is written" in Christian script supported by Roman initiative.

Rather, if such ever happens, then one can say "it has happened", if one might witness how such a happening would actually unfold and have the opportunity to observe. Then, it can be shown if any of Christianity's many variations of 'what will happen" were correct or not.

Until then, I see no reason to accept any of it as truth/truthful.

I am inclined to the more reasonable understanding that the story was fabricated by Roman/Greek influences as a means of further rubbing the Jews noses in their defeat and their temple being destroyed and their subsequent ejection from Israel, as compelled by Rome.