Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

[POI]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

[JoeyKnothead]

It would be nice if theists would just be honest and give more honest answers, such as....

"I have no idea why animals do suffer, or appear to suffer, but God must have a good reason for it..." Instead, we will read along, as he performs 'apologietics'.

The lord works in mysterious ways(tm).

As I mentioned, dealing in the subjective makes it hard to establish the objective.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #374]

I am not God, so I don't know. I am agnostic on this issue. I gave answers for each position, though.

If someone can bring clear evidence that animals do only appear to suffer, then I will hold that position. My answer is pretty much the same. Animals suffer to keep in tact Divine Hiddenness.

The way I see it, divine hiddenness cannot be rejected if one believes in God. So either God exists or not. If God exists, then he clearly chooses to remain mostly hidden. This is not a problem if it is possible that God can have a good reason for divine hiddenness, which he can.

If I accept divine hiddenness, which I do, then if humans suffered but animals did not, then that would go against divine hiddenness. We would know something was wrong with the world. It would feel all too designed.

It would be like if the earth was flat and a dome was over it, and we discovered this were true, yet all the other planets we can see appear round. We would know earth was specially made for us. We might think by aliens or God or gods, but not by nature. For this reason alone, I can reject flat earth theory because it would be against divine hiddenness.

[brunumb]

Animals suffer to keep in tact Divine Hiddenness.

This God of your is one sad, pathetic little puppy if he has to rely on the suffering of animals to keep himself in hiding. It really boggles my mind that anyone can believe in such a being let alone defend it.

[JoeyKnothead]

Animals suffer to keep in tact Divine Hiddenness.

This God of your is one sad, pathetic little puppy if he has to rely on the suffering of animals to keep himself in hiding. It really boggles my mind that anyone can believe in such a being let alone defend it.

Divine hiddenness and divine ain't theredness look a lot alike.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to POI in post #374]

I am not God, so I don't know. I am agnostic on this issue. I gave answers for each position, though.

If someone can bring clear evidence that animals do only appear to suffer, then I will hold that position. My answer is pretty much the same. Animals suffer to keep in tact Divine Hiddenness.

The way I see it, divine hiddenness cannot be rejected if one believes in God. So either God exists or not. If God exists, then he clearly chooses to remain mostly hidden. This is not a problem if it is possible that God can have a good reason for divine hiddenness, which he can.

If I accept divine hiddenness, which I do, then if humans suffered but animals did not, then that would go against divine hiddenness. We would know something was wrong with the world. It would feel all too designed.

It would be like if the earth was flat and a dome was over it, and we discovered this were true, yet all the other planets we can see appear round. We would know earth was specially made for us. We might think by aliens or God or gods, but not by nature. For this reason alone, I can reject flat earth theory because it would be against divine hiddenness.

like the Babel fish innit? 'God says "I refuse to prove that I exist because proof denies Faith and without Faith I am nothing." But the Babel fish is a dead give away. It proves that God exists, and therefore Her doesn't.

Your argument of course depends (as usual) on assuming that God exists and any problems must have an explanation, whether it's good, bad or just Faith. As you say, a special creation of Humankind would give away God and therefore it would nullify Free Will, so therefore there has to be a reason why God acts like he doesn't exist. Sorry. The go to hypothesis, NOT assuming that God exists because you cannot use what is being questioned as evidence to answer the question (as a trained philosophical expert you will identify a circular argument) the simplest explanation that fits the facts is the preferable one - That hypothesis is that God does not exist.

Animals suffer to keep in tact Divine Hiddenness.

This God of your is one sad, pathetic little puppy if he has to rely on the suffering of animals to keep himself in hiding. It really boggles my mind that anyone can believe in such a being let alone defend it.

Divine hiddenness and divine ain't theredness look a lot alike.

Indeed. The clicker is "If there was no (intervening) God, this is how the world would look." Aquinas - for God...a Question...does it not ever occur to you that there might not actually be a Biblegod? It is really what it appears to be? What we goddless call "Blind Faith"? - and with some good reason?

[kjw47]

[Replying to kjw47 in post #360]

You seem confused on the matter. The angel being who came to be known as satan and devil, was good, a loving servant of the true God.

Q: Did you make that up or reference it from the Bible, or perhaps repeating something you heard?

The rest of the mythology you write of, is more of the same type of conjecture, based upon very scant data to begin with.

Every one knows satan was an angel, he stood for righteousness before rebelling. God never would have given him the position over the garden( earth) if he were bad at that point.

[kjw47]

You seem confused on the matter. The angel being who came to be known as satan and devil, was good, a loving servant of the true God. God placed him over the garden( earth) he got jealous and wanted worship, thus he rebelled and lied to Eve to screw it all up.

I think it is you who is confused. Satan was not the serpent in the garden.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.

Genesis 3:14  And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.

Time for some more creative spin I suppose.

satan spoke through the serpent. Rev 12:9, Rev 20:2-both in reference to satan.

[kjw47]

I'm going to follow your argument where ever it leads us. Here we go...

Mortals asked for this sick satan ruled system of things in the Eden rebellion. It was they who brought the knowledge of both good and bad into this world. Nothing is immune. God created mortals to know only good. Mortals caused this by kicking God in the teeth believing a lie from one who did 0 for them. Where as God handed all of it to them free of charge. God is letting it be proved once and for all time. Is it best mortals know only good, or is it best to know both good and bad. God was 100% correct-bad sucks.

I'm going to try and just grant as much as I can here, for sake in brevity. 'The fall of man' caused 'suffering' to reign upon all --- (humans, animals, insects, etc.). Okay... Let's continue....

So I will now ask you logical question(s).... Animals, reptiles, etc, were on this planet before humans, right? What the heck did the carnivores eat before the 'fall of man'?

Everything ate vegetation. It will go back that way in Gods kingdom-Isaiah 11: 7--The animals wouldnt have gotten along on Noahs ark if they were meat eaters at that point.

[POI]

I am not God, so I don't know.

Yer a dollar short and a day late for this response. Unless you wish to concede, that your given response(s) about this topic are completely bogus, I will continue to explore.

If someone can bring clear evidence that animals do only appear to suffer, then I will hold that position. My answer is pretty much the same. Animals suffer to keep in tact Divine Hiddenness.

You are "neck high" in your set of claims now.... I need you to pick a lane ---> (suffering, not suffering)? I'm still awaiting a response for post #374. I will not address the rest of post #382 until you pick a side. Unless you would like to admit, here and now, that you are pulling responses right out of your keister.

[POI]

Everything ate vegetation. It will go back that way in Gods kingdom-Isaiah 11: 7--The animals wouldnt have gotten along on Noahs ark if they were meat eaters at that point.

The T. Rex was a vegetarian prior to "the fall"?