How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1691

Post by otseng »

Shroud skeptics continually claim the Turin shroud is a medieval forgery, a cunningly crafted work by a mysterious artist.

"We can be virtually certain that the Shroud of Turin is a hoax that was originally created in France in around the 1350s AD by an artist trained in the Gothic figurative style as part of a faith-healing scam."
https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2020/ ... ly-a-hoax/

"Scholarship and science have proven the Turin “shroud” a fake"
https://skepticalinquirer.org/exclusive ... ic-author/

"This note is intended to describe why, from an artistic and anatomical perspective, the shroud image is an embarrassingly obvious fraud committed by a Gothic artist following the standard conventions of his time."
https://infidels.org/kiosk/article/the- ... otohumans/

"There was a multi-million-pound business in making forgeries during the fourteenth century. Someone just got a bit of linen, faked it up and flogged it." - Edward Hall
https://www.academia.edu/26328443/Is_th ... Photograph

"Walter McCrone, a chemist and expert in microscopy, conducted an independent analysis of samples borrowed from the Shroud by the STURP team in 1978. He reported that there was evidence consistent with pigments in the samples — a sign that someone had drawn at least parts of the image. His conclusion was that the Shroud had been created by a talented artist sometime in the Middle Ages."
https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sc ... al-forgers

"These results suggest that a talented artist carefully studied the New Testament and other artists’ painting of Christ. He then thought about a shroud image in terms of a dark tomb. Instead of the usual portrait with normal light and shadow, he assumed that the image could only be produced by body contact with the cloth. He painted directly on the cloth to image the body-contact points (forehead, bridge of the nose, cheekbones, mustache, beard, etc., over the entire body, front, and back). This automatically creates a negative image."
Walter McCrone
https://www.academia.edu/3986571/A_DETA ... PRETATIONS

"An Italian scientist says he has reproduced one of the world's most famous Catholic relics, the Shroud of Turin, to support his belief it is a medieval fake, not the cloth Jesus was buried in."
https://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/1 ... in.shroud/

So, the overwhelming consensus from skeptics is the shroud is a medieval work of art by an unknown artist.

Meanwhile, there many been many scientists studying the shroud. So much so that it is considered "The World’s Most Analyzed Artifact".
https://www.museumofthebible.org/newsro ... d-artifact

"The Shroud of Turin is the single, most studied artifact in human history.”
https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/109/2/j92cur.pdf

To get a glimpse of the scope of scientific work that has been done on the shroud, Barrie Schwortz has been collecting papers and books written on the shroud and both lists are quite extensive:
https://www.shroud.com/papers.htm
https://www.shroud.com/booklist.htm

Shroud Spectrum International was a peer reviewed journal dedicated solely to the study of the Shroud of Turin.
https://www.shroud.com/spectrum.htm

There have been many conferences on the shroud.
https://www.shroud.com/confrncs.htm

So much scientific research has occurred that it is a scientific field in its own right - Sindonology.

"The study of the Shroud of Turin."
https://www.definitions.net/definition/sindonology

"the scientific study of the Shroud of Turin."
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sindonology

"the scientific study of the Shroud of Turin."
https://www.wordreference.com/definition/sindonology

What other artifact has generated so much scientific literature, books, and meetings?

But, if the shroud was a medieval artwork, there is practically no references to it in any art literature, art studies, art classes, art books, or art museums. It should rightly be considered an artwork centuries ahead of its time (photorealism, pixelation, halftone imaging, airbrush technique, projection technique, blood painting technique, unknown imaging technique, etc), but there is silence from the art community.

This lack of attention from the art world is even admitted by shroud critic Hugh Farey:
It is curious therefore that it has received so little interest from art historians. Only one has published a study of any length, and although several others have mentioned it in passing, they have characterised it as one thing or another without any serious consideration.
https://www.academia.edu/35960624/THE_MEDIEVAL_SHROUD

If the shroud was truly a medieval artwork, the above facts would make no sense. Why should scant attention be made to it by the art community, but it would be the most scientifically analyzed artifact? It is a pioneer in many aspects of art techniques centuries before others have discovered or used them. Yet it is not credited by the art community as being the first of its kind. There is practically dead silence from the art community on the shroud.

However, if the shroud was authentic, then it make sense, because it is not artwork, but is the burial shroud of a crucified man from the first century and can thus be scientifically studied. And so much so that it is universally recognized as the world's most studied artifact.

This observation alone practically proves the authenticity of the shroud to me. It would make no sense otherwise.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1692

Post by William »

Q: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Open AI: The question of whether the Bible is inerrant, or free from error, is a complex and deeply debated topic that has been the subject of much scholarly and theological discussion. Some believe that the Bible is inerrant and should be understood as the literal and infallible word of God, while others argue that it should be understood as a historical document that was written by human beings and therefore contains errors and inconsistencies.

It is worth noting that the concept of inerrancy was not formalized until the late 19th century and it's not a belief that is held by all Christians or religious groups who consider the Bible as sacred text.

One way to approach the question of trust in the Bible is to consider it as a historical document, rather than as an infallible text. The Bible is a collection of texts that were written over the course of many centuries by different authors, in different languages, and in different cultural contexts. As such, it reflects the beliefs, perspectives, and biases of the people who wrote it.

Despite this, many people continue to find value in the Bible as a source of spiritual and moral guidance. The teachings and stories found in the Bible have had a profound impact on Western civilization and continue to shape the way that people think about ethics, morality, and the nature of God.

Ultimately, whether or not you choose to trust the Bible is a personal decision that is shaped by your own beliefs and experiences. If you are interested in reading the Bible for yourself, it is important to approach it with an open mind and a critical eye, and to consider the historical context in which it was written. It might be helpful to also read different interpretations and commentaries of the texts to gain more insights and perspectives.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1693

Post by otseng »

An interesting feature of the shroud image is it is missing depictions of certain things.

"It is important to note there are no images of the sides of the body or the top of the head"
https://blog.asnt.org/the-mysteries-of- ... -of-turin/

The shroud would've covered the top of the head since it was one piece. Yet, there is no image there. There is nothing between the depictions of the front and back of the head.

Image
https://shroudphotos.com/gallery/

This rules out the image being created by some sort of vapor, otherwise the vapor would've also created an image at the top of the head. It also is evidence against a bas-relief technique since it would not create a separate front and back image at the top of the head.

"Another part where there is no image present is on the sides of the face."
https://shroud3d.com/introduction/image ... -of-turin/

We clearly see ears are missing.

Image
https://shroudphotos.com/gallery/

But not just the sides and the top of the body are missing imaging, but parts of the body like the neck and around the hands have no imaging on the front of the body.

In addition to having a correlation between lack of an image with the distance to the cloth resulting in the 3D information, there also appears to be encoding information with the angle of the cloth relative to the plane of the body. The top of the head is close to the cloth, but has no imaging. It is perpendicular to the ground at that point and there is no imaging. Cloth draping around the neck and hands would be at a greater angle and have less imaging. Of course, on the sides of the body the cloth would have a greater angle as well.

So, there appears to not only have distance information encoded in the cloth, but also the angle of the cloth encoded as well. This is another clue as to how the image was formed.

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shroudofturin.jpg

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1694

Post by otseng »

Image
https://apcz.umk.pl/SetF/article/view/S ... .001/24098

The body image has signs of being in rigor mortis.
Rigor mortis[a] (Latin: rigor "stiffness", and mortis "of death"), or postmortem rigidity, is the fourth stage of death. It is one of the recognizable signs of death, characterized by stiffening of the limbs of the corpse caused by chemical changes in the muscles postmortem (mainly calcium).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis
Rigor mortis is an early and obvious postmortem change manifested by a stiffening of all the body muscles, both voluntary and involuntary, as well as large and small.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi14part3.pdf
The body appears to be in a state of rigor mortis which is evidenced by an overall stiffness as well as specific alterations in the appearance of the lower extremities from the posterior aspect.
https://www.shroud.com/bucklin.htm
The right calf has made a near-complete imprint on the fabric of the Shroud, while the left calf is far less clear... The maintenance of this position is definite evidence of the development of rigor mortis.

It will be noticed that the image of the head is in a flexion position with the chin close to the chest and slightly turned toward the right. For this position to be maintained with the body in the burial cloth requires the presence of rigor mortis. If there were no rigor, the head would have become rotated into a more natural anatomic position.

It is my opinion that no signs of postmortem decomposition appear on the Shroud image and that there appears clear evidence that the body was in a state of rigor mortis when placed in the Shroud.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi14part3.pdf

However, under torture or excessive physical activity, rigor mortis is probably complete almost immediately, and if one looks at the pictures of the shroud, one gets the impression that the face, arms and fingers, the gluteal areas and the left leg show that this individual demonstrates rigor mortis. We would expect rigor mortis to disappear somewhere between 48 to 72 hours, with the body becoming flaccid, with loss of normal body contours, and distension of the facial and abdominal areas. The man on the shroud shows no obvious evidence of postmortem decomposition. The problem, however, becomes more acute when one tries to explain how the man got out of the cloth within 48 to 72 hours without smearing or altering the blood stains which had soaked into the linen fibers and transferred accurately and correctly the configurations of the blood flow .

https://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi ... ontext=lnq
Rigor mortis is seen in the stiffness of the extremities, the retraction of the thumbs (discussed below), and the distention of the feet. It has frozen an attitude of death while hanging by the arms; the rib cage is abnormally expanded, the large pectoral muscles are in an attitude of extreme inspiration (enlarged and drawn up toward the collarbone and arms), the lower abdomen is distended, and the epigastric hollow is drawn in sharply.

There is, however, no evidence of initial decomposition of the body, no issue of fluids from the orifices, and no decline of rigor mortis leading to flattening of the back and blurred or double imprints.
https://www.shroud.com/meacham2.htm
The arms were flexed over the chest, rigor mortis having been broken in order to accomplish this.
https://www.shroud.com/bucklin2.htm
medical forensic analysis that reveals a body in a state of rigor mortis with no signs of decomposition and bloodstains that show no smearing or pulling apart as would be the case if a body were unwrapped while removing it.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/porter1.pdf
most forensic experts agree that the Man of the Shroud shows evidence of rigor mortis because of the bent knees and absence of a neck, therefore indicating that the crucified was dead for some time before being taken down from the cross.
https://www.shroud.com/zugibe2.htm
The shape of the buttocks is round and not flat, and this is also an indication of rigor mortis.
https://shroud3d.com/introduction/analy ... -of-turin/

Probable time-frame of stages of death:

Image

Bevilacqua M, Concheri G, Concheri S, Fanti G, Rodella S (2018) Rigor Mortis and News obtained by the Body’s Scientific Reconstruction of the Turin Shroud Man. Forensic Sci Today 4(1): 001-008. DOI: 10.17352/pjfst.000010
https://www.peertechzpublications.com/a ... -4-110.php

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1695

Post by otseng »

In 2002, the backing cloth (Holland cloth) was removed to restore the shroud. For the first time, the back of the cloth was photographed. And on the back side one can make out a faint image of the face. A study was then conducted to look at the image and use image processing to remove noise from the linen.
While the front of the shroud has been studied intensively over the years, the back had remained hidden under a piece of Holland cloth which was sewn by nuns to cover up damage caused by a fire.

That protective layer was removed in 2002 for restoration and the back of the cloth was photographed.

The two scientists said they studied these photographs and used mathematical and optical techniques to process the images.

They found that the face that can be seen on the reverse of the shroud matches that of the front.

“We can detect the presence of a nose, eyes, hair, beard and moustache on the back surface that correspond in place, form, position and scale to those of the front,” Fanti said.
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna4750663

The image on the other side of the cloth is not because the image bled through the cloth like paint. As mentioned in post 1608, the image is only on the topmost fibers of the threads.
The presence of a face on both sides of the shroud would seem an obvious feature in case of a fake: when making a print onto a cloth, paint soaks the cloth's fibres and also reaches the back side.

"This is not the case of the shroud. On both sides, the face image is superficial, involving only the outermost linen fibres.
https://www.abc.net.au/science/news/sto ... 085582.htm
"When a cross-section of the fabric is made, one extremely superficial image appears above and one below, but there is nothing in the middle. It is extremely difficult to make a fake with these features."

He says this "double superficiality" could answer how the image got on to the cloth.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scie ... 54962.html

The scientists, Fanti and Maggiolo, analyzed the photos published by Ghiberti to make the discovery.
In this work, some photos of the bs of the TS are
analysed by eidomatic procedures, in order to verify whether
and where there is a body image on the back of the sheet
and whether it corresponds in both position and form to the
front one (Maggiolo 2002/2003). Unfortunately, the original
photographs of the bs, owned by the Archdiocese of Turin,
have not yet been made available to the scientific world. The
only photographs available for analysis are those published
by Ghiberti (2002) and the results of scanning (Archdiocese
2000).
The double superficiality of the frontal image of the Turin Shroud
Giulio Fanti and Roberto Maggiolo
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... rin_Shroud

The only image I can find of the backside with the face area is from the above paper. Below is the raw photo and even without any processing one can make out the hair and some facial features. (The long rectangle was one part of the image that they tried to process out.)

Image

Compare this with a negative of the face that I took at the Bible Museum:

Image

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1696

Post by otseng »

Image
https://www.raydowning.com/blog/2016/2/ ... d-of-turin

Ray Downing created the above image by using software to process the shroud image to enhance the blood stains.
Using sensitive digital color mapping, Downing enhanced the blood image to produce the blood map you see in the above image.

The man in the Shroud appears to have suffered well over a hundred and thirty different injuries. There are wounds from scourging, wounds to the wrists and feet, numerous head wounds, and a side wound.
https://www.raydowning.com/blog/2016/2/ ... d-of-turin

We see blood stains all over the head, scourge marks all over the back, chest, arms, rear, and legs. There are crucifixion wounds in the wrist and feet. There is a large wound in the side of the body. This side wound produced the largest blood stain on the body which forms a belt of blood at the back.

Several studies reveal the stains as real blood:
The image seems to be that of a real human body.
Additionally, red stains of different size, form and density
are spread all over the body image and in a few instances
outside the body. Forensic examination by help of different
analyzing tools reveals these stains as human blood. The
distribution and flow of the blood, the position of the body
are compatible with the fact that the Turin Shroud Man (TSM)
has been crucified.

From a forensic point of view, the blood marks are
macroscopically consistent with blood, except for the
color which is too red for centuries-old blood. Blood is a
mixture of plasma (the liquid phase containing many
biological molecules, in majority of albumin and other
proteins) and cells, mainly erythrocytes (or red blood
cells, RBC). RBC has no nucleus and can be seen as tiny
bags full of hemoglobin. Hemoglobin is made of four
proteins with a chemical structure named “heme” in their
center. Heme pertains to the large family of the porphy-
rins found in many biological materials (for example
vegetables). In blood, an atom of iron (Fe) is at the center
of the heme. On the Turin Shroud, spectroscopy has
shown that only iron, calcium and strontium are
detectable above trace level and found more or less
uniformly on the entire cloth (Schwalbe and Rogers,
1982). The amount of iron is slightly higher in the blood
areas and consistent with the expected level of iron in
blood (Schwalbe and Rogers, 1982).

With high resolution microscopy, the blood areas are
made of: 1) in blood areas: red coated fibers, 2) in the
margin of blood areas: golden yellow coated fibers
(serum), 3) agglomerates of amorphous material (some
micrometers, color: orange to red in the blood areas,
brown in the blood-scorch margins), 4) red particles,
about 1 µm large, mainly found in the waterstain margins
and blood scorch areas.

According to Heller and Adler (1981), the material
described above (1, 2 and 3) in blood areas, after
removing it from the tape (which changes the optical
properties), is not birefringent, demonstrating that it is not
a pigment as claimed by Walter McCrone (McCrone and
Skirius, 1980, 1981). Therefore this material is not made
of pigment. Most of the birefringent particles (iron oxide)
were found in the waterstain margins and blood scorch
areas.
https://www.academia.edu/29775791/Foren ... Shroud_Man

"The presence of whole blood was established by detection of heme derivatives, bile pigments, and proteins. Although iron in several forms is found over the whole cloth its distrubution is shown to be accounted for by natural processes rather than as an added pigment."
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/A ... 78eb240b11
Pierluigi Baima Bollone also
confirmed the presence of human globulins in the blood
(Bollone, 1990). In summary,
i) The “blood” is real blood: it does contain all the
molecular components of blood (iron, amount of iron
consistent with real blood, iron specifically attached to
heme, porphyrins, human serum including proteins, albu-
min, and finally high levels of bilirubin) as demonstrated
by microscopy, microspectroscopy, microchemistry and
immunology.
ii) The blood also contains very unusual high amounts of
bilirubin. This fact was not expected before the
experiments but can be understood if a quick and large
hemolysis occurred as should be the case for Roman
scourging.
iii) However, two facts seem to be contradictory with the
hypothesis of real blood: the very low amount of potas-
sium and the red color. To explain that, Adler wrote that
the blood on the Shroud is not whole blood but exudates
(Adler, 1986) that left an imprint during the clotting
process on the corpse. In blood, almost all the potassium
is inside the red cells which remained on the body during
the clotting process. Adler (1986) wrote: “But a torture,
scourging and crucifixion leading to shock - that would
produce a tremendous hemolysis. In less than 30 s, the
hemolyzed hemoglobin will run through the liver, building
up very high bilirubin content in the blood. If that blood
then clots, the exudates forms, and all the intact cells with
hemoglobin stay behind, only the hemolyzed hemoglobin
goes out along with the serum albumin which binds the
bilirubin…. The blood has no cells, is very low in
potassium and has the right color and composition for the
blood of a man who was severely flogged and crucified”.
https://www.academia.edu/29775791/Foren ... Shroud_Man
Doctors Heller and Adler have identified the reddish staining material
as blood and human protein, and also several Italian scientists who
worked under the direction of Dr. Baima Bollone were able to show that
this is not only human blood but were able, under special techniques, to
identify the blood grouping. The excellent work done by these scientists
should end the discussion of whether this is iron oxide pigment or human
blood.
https://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi ... ontext=lnq
the preponderance of
current scientific evidence indicates that:
(i) there is blood on the Shroud of Turin;
(ii) the blood is of primate, i.e. human
origin; and (iii) the blood type is most
likely AB as determined by forward typing
methods, specifically mixed agglutination
and immunohistochemistry techniques.
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/B ... f0052ff0a5

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1697

Post by brunumb »

How is discussion of the Shroud of Turin relevant to the topic of this thread and the OP?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1698

Post by otseng »

brunumb wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:04 pm How is discussion of the Shroud of Turin relevant to the topic of this thread and the OP?
I posted ...
otseng wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:41 am One of the most important doctrines in Christianity is the resurrection of Jesus and is one of the beliefs necessary for salvation.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Also, if Jesus was not resurrected, then all of Christianity is undermined. If the resurrection of Jesus is falsified, then Christianity is falsified.

1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

If he was not resurrected from the dead, he would be no different than any other person, including any other prophet or saint in any religion. But, if he was resurrected from the dead, then he would be quite unique and set him apart from all else.

The resurrection of Jesus is claimed to be a historical event and is not a make believe event that we should accept by blind faith. And if it is a historical event, then it should be able to be validated like any other historical event.

For any historical event, there are two main methods to demonstrate its historicity - artifacts and written records. We had talked about the account in the Bible of Sennacherib attacking Jerusalem. Without any artifacts or written records, there would be no corroborating evidence to support the Biblical claim. Then in 1830, Colonel Taylor discovered Sennacherib's Prism which is a written account that remarkably matches the Biblical account from the Assyrian perspective. So, there is no now doubt among historians that the Jerusalem siege actually occurred.

Like all arguments I've made in this thread, I'm not out to prove Jesus was resurrected, but I will attempt to show there are evidence to support it and that it is a reasonable position to hold.
We can trust the Bible is a reliable account of a foundational claim of Christianity, the resurrection of Jesus. I believe the Shroud of Turin is a corroborating artifact that supports the Biblical narrative of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1699

Post by JoeyKnothead »

otseng wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:26 pm We can trust the Bible is a reliable account of a foundational claim of Christianity, the resurrection of Jesus. I believe the Shroud of Turin is a corroborating artifact that supports the Biblical narrative of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.
Do we have some corroboration of the image and what Jesus actually looked like?

Do we have any DNA for comparison?

Even if this cloth can be traced back to being a burial cloth, it still only shows us a human. It doesn't show that human doing him anything other'n being in that cloth.

For me, a piece of cloth is hardly enough to convince me some dead guy decided he needed to hop up and fetch him after a burrito.

Beyond that, there's the multitude of other outsized claims in the Bible (many of which otseng has addressed, if failingly).
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1700

Post by otseng »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 2:41 am Do we have some corroboration of the image and what Jesus actually looked like?
What we have is corroboration with what Jesus went through and experienced through textual evidence with the evidence contained on the shroud. As I mentioned, this is the standard approach for confirming the veracity of any archaeological or historical claims - the corroboration of textual evidence with artifact evidence.

As for what Jesus actually looked like, the only way we can really do that even now is with videos or photos. And remarkably, what we have with the shroud is the closest thing to a photo that was created before the invention of photography. We can even say it was the world's first selfie shot.
Do we have any DNA for comparison?
Though there is some DNA on it from the blood, it is very degraded.
Even if this cloth can be traced back to being a burial cloth, it still only shows us a human. It doesn't show that human doing him anything other'n being in that cloth.
Yes, we can rule out that it was any form of human created artwork through any artistic technique (painting, bas relief, airbrush, etc). A real human body must've been involved somehow. As for going to the next step that a resurrection was involved somehow, we'll discuss that towards the end of the discussion on the shroud.
For me, a piece of cloth is hardly enough to convince me some dead guy decided he needed to hop up and fetch him after a burrito.
I challenge you to actually study this. If you do a deep dive study of the scientific evidence and then you still don't believe, then at least I know you've been objective about this and have an open mind. But until then, you have no logical justification to reject the claim. And this challenge is not just to you, but to all readers of this thread.
Beyond that, there's the multitude of other outsized claims in the Bible (many of which otseng has addressed, if failingly).
We can go into those as well in a future topic for this thread. But, this topic is the core issue of Christianity and I consider this the capstone topic in this thread. So, we would be spending considerable time on this. Any other topic will have to wait until this topic has been fully covered.

As for topics we've covered in this thread so far, I don't know how you base your opinion that I've addressed things "failingly", but I will let readers read through this massive thread and judge for themselves which side has been more failing.

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