Who met Paul on Damascus Road?

[tutle64]

Let's preface this debate with a bit of background. Paul was first introduced in the biblical drama as Saul in Acts 7:58. He not only dragged these members of The Way off to prison, but voted to have them killed (Acts 26:10). Paul then apparently converted and became an apostle. The most notable point that legitimized him was the Damascus Road conversion in Acts 9, 22, and 26. In this event, Paul was in the middle of persecuting The Way when suddenly he was met by a bright light. This light called itself Jesus, told Paul to do some things, then told him to get up. In two of the three stories, Paul is blinded. Some contradictions include who the light shined around, what Paul was blinded by, whether the men with him heard a voice, whether they saw a light, and whether they fell to the ground with Paul. My question for you is, who met Paul on Damascus Road? I am convinced that he could not have met Jesus because Acts 1:11, Rev 1:7, and Mat 24:30 all lead to the conclusion that Jesus would not come back until judgment day, coming on the clouds. I believe that Paul met Satan, disguised as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14), on Damascus Road. So again, who met Paul on Damascus Road?

[TRANSPONDER]

...Then I revise my argument to accommodate a revised doctrine...just to check, your doctrine is that Jesus' crucifixion was not a sacrifice to make a way to escape sin - death? ...

By what the Bible tells, Jesus forgave sins before his death, without any sacrifice or death. Therefore his death or any sacrifice was not required for to escape sin or death.

But, Jesus can be seen as a sacrifice, because he used his life for us. It could be compared to a soldier that sacrifices his life defending his country.

Ok. But we have to pin this one down. Was the Crucifixion (in your view) required to make salvation work, or not? That is to say, if Jesus hadn't been crucified, the capacity to forgive sins before that would be enough to save anyone worthy of being saved?

Another way to say it would be: "Should it be said that it is not the Cross that saves, but the Transpotable Pallett?" Incxdentally, 'Take up thy bed and walk' is one of those discrepancies that is evidence for doubting the gospel -narratives. We find this in Luke in Galilee, but in John, the event or saying appears in Jerusalem.

cue: "Well, couldn't Jesus have said the same thing on two different occasions?"

[2ndpillar2]

Get real. "Angel of light" was not in quotations. Bright light was the quotation, which was expanded by me by saying "such as an angel of light", because "bright lights" don't speak, and "angels of light" are a well-known topic of Paul's expertise. Actually, "Satan" is a topic of Paul regarding his gift from "a messenger of Satan", which was a thorn in his side. Apparently, Paul keeps close relation with "angels of light" and "Satan", or like Biden, he has someone whispering in his ear which only he can hear.

Ok, so the problem here seems to be that you read too much of your own to the story. Bible doesn't say that the bright light spoke. If we are literal and don't add own ideas to the story, there is no problem.

Get real. Acts 9:4 "He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”" Was it the serpent under a rock that supposedly spoke to Paul? The "Christian" story line is that "Jesus" spoke to Paul in the wilderness. Paul never met "Jesus", and therefore could not recognize his voice. As for any interpretation, that would be that "persecuting Me" would refer to "Jesus", which is in itself a leap of faith in the story line of the unknown author of Acts, supposedly Luke, who according to Luke 1:1-3, was a first-person witness to nothing. As no one heard this voice accept Paul, then Paul is his own witness to this event, and therefore the story is "untrue" (John 5:31). Dorothy fell down a rabbit hole, and apparently some people are trying to follow her. Fortunately for Dorothy, her author could reach in a save her.

[tam]

Peace to you,

...I am convinced that he could not have met Jesus because Acts 1:11, Rev 1:7, and Mat 24:30 all lead to the conclusion that Jesus would not come back until judgment day, coming on the clouds. I believe that Paul met Satan, disguised as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14), on Damascus Road. So again, who met Paul on Damascus Road?

Bible says it was Jesus who spoke to him. If it would have been Satan, why would Satan go against himself and be on the side of Jesus?

As he traveled, it happened that he got close to Damascus, and suddenly a light from the sky shone around him. He fell on the earth, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” He said, “Who are you, Lord?” The Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
Acts 9:3-5

But, this doesn't mean Jesus came back. It only tells Paul saw a bright light and heard the voice of Jesus.

Let me ask you three questions:

I do not see the relevance of your questions to the point that 1213 made. Perhaps you could elaborate on that?

In the account, Saul is persecuting Christ. This is the very thing that Satan does... no longer to Christ in person, but to all the rest of us who belong to Christ:

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about [Jesus].


Satan continues to persecute those who belong to Christ. But the One (Christ) who Paul met on the road to Damascus STOPPED him from continuing to persecute and kill those who belong to Christ.

It doesn't make much sense to suggest that Satan was behind that change of heart. Even if you were just going by what is written in the bible (assuming you accepted Revelation which the OP seems to accept), Satan wages war against those who "keep God's commands and hold fast to their testimony about Christ."

(1) Jesus had to die on the cross so that man's sin could be forgiven, true?

Adam sold his offspring to Death, Christ purchased us back with His own life. His life for our lives. Life for life.

This is why it is called a ransom. A ransom is a payment made to release someone (or something).

We also have forgiveness of our sins if we are covered in Christ (by His blood).

Love can also be a covering, since love covers over a multitude of sins. (1Peter 4:8; Proverbs 10:12).

But more to what I think is your point: if Christ had not given His life, we would still be eternally subject to Death (no possible resurrection). I do not see why Christ had to be crucified (or persecuted, spit upon, beaten, falsely accused, etc) to be able to give His life as a ransom - except that God knew beforehand that this is what would happen, had already seen it, and so there were prophecies about all that would happen. In that sense, it had to happen that way (because of the scriptures).

(2) this could not have happened if Jesus had not been arrested and the Jews had not forced Pilate (who was - according to the gospels - inclined to let Jesus go free) to execute him, correct?

See above.

(3) Satan entering into Judas, and therefore in cahoots with the Jews who were were working to bring about Jesus' death, was therefore working to make God's plan happen, yes?No? Not for the first time, Satan appears to be doing God's dirty work for Him.

Or... God knows how to bring a good thing from something bad. God also raised up Pharaoh to show His power (which also brought many other people who were not Israel to Him, leaving Egypt with Israel). But that does not mean that Pharaoh was good, or that Pharaoh was working for God (at least not willingly or knowingly). And something far worse may well have happened if it had not been that particular Pharaoh (as bad as he was).


Also, do you not recall that Satan (through Peter) tried to convince Christ that He would NOT be executed (which would then have left us all still subject to Death)? Satan is working to defeat those who belong to Christ. He failed to defeat Christ. But he has an accusation against us (who belong to Christ and to God): that we will 'curse God and die' if things get too hard; that we do not really love God (and Christ) except for what they can do for us. The Adversary wants us to lose our faith, he wants us to DIE.

That is not what Christ and God want.

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, Deut 30:19

"The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life."

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.




Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[TRANSPONDER]

Peace to you,

...I am convinced that he could not have met Jesus because Acts 1:11, Rev 1:7, and Mat 24:30 all lead to the conclusion that Jesus would not come back until judgment day, coming on the clouds. I believe that Paul met Satan, disguised as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14), on Damascus Road. So again, who met Paul on Damascus Road?

Bible says it was Jesus who spoke to him. If it would have been Satan, why would Satan go against himself and be on the side of Jesus?

As he traveled, it happened that he got close to Damascus, and suddenly a light from the sky shone around him. He fell on the earth, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” He said, “Who are you, Lord?” The Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
Acts 9:3-5

But, this doesn't mean Jesus came back. It only tells Paul saw a bright light and heard the voice of Jesus.

Let me ask you three questions:

I do not see the relevance of your questions to the point that 1213 made. Perhaps you could elaborate on that?

In the account, Saul is persecuting Christ. This is the very thing that Satan does... no longer to Christ in person, but to all the rest of us who belong to Christ:

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about [Jesus].


Satan continues to persecute those who belong to Christ. But the One (Christ) who Paul met on the road to Damascus STOPPED him from continuing to persecute and kill those who belong to Christ.

It doesn't make much sense to suggest that Satan was behind that change of heart. Even if you were just going by what is written in the bible (assuming you accepted Revelation which the OP seems to accept), Satan wages war against those who "keep God's commands and hold fast to their testimony about Christ."

(1) Jesus had to die on the cross so that man's sin could be forgiven, true?

Adam sold his offspring to Death, Christ purchased us back with His own life. His life for our lives. Life for life.

This is why it is called a ransom. A ransom is a payment made to release someone (or something).

We also have forgiveness of our sins if we are covered in Christ (by His blood).

Love can also be a covering, since love covers over a multitude of sins. (1Peter 4:8; Proverbs 10:12).

But more to what I think is your point: if Christ had not given His life, we would still be eternally subject to Death (no possible resurrection). I do not see why Christ had to be crucified (or persecuted, spit upon, beaten, falsely accused, etc) to be able to give His life as a ransom - except that God knew beforehand that this is what would happen, had already seen it, and so there were prophecies about all that would happen. In that sense, it had to happen that way (because of the scriptures).

(2) this could not have happened if Jesus had not been arrested and the Jews had not forced Pilate (who was - according to the gospels - inclined to let Jesus go free) to execute him, correct?

See above.

(3) Satan entering into Judas, and therefore in cahoots with the Jews who were were working to bring about Jesus' death, was therefore working to make God's plan happen, yes?No? Not for the first time, Satan appears to be doing God's dirty work for Him.

Or... God knows how to bring a good thing from something bad. God also raised up Pharaoh to show His power (which also brought many other people who were not Israel to Him, leaving Egypt with Israel). But that does not mean that Pharaoh was good, or that Pharaoh was working for God (at least not willingly or knowingly). And something far worse may well have happened if it had not been that particular Pharaoh (as bad as he was).


Also, do you not recall that Satan (through Peter) tried to convince Christ that He would NOT be executed (which would then have left us all still subject to Death)? Satan is working to defeat those who belong to Christ. He failed to defeat Christ. But he has an accusation against us (who belong to Christ and to God): that we will 'curse God and die' if things get too hard; that we do not really love God (and Christ) except for what they can do for us. The Adversary wants us to lose our faith, he wants us to DIE.

That is not what Christ and God want.

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, Deut 30:19

"The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life."

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.




Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

This was the point of my questions. Related to the above. "In the account, Saul is persecuting Christ. This is the very thing that Satan does.." I'm arguing...and I could be wrong...that those who wanted to save Jesus from crucifixion were working to foil (unintentionally) God's plan to save mankind, but Satan entering (as an example) into Judas, to get Jesus arrested, was working to have God's plan for salvation happen. So was Satan really 'persecuting Jesus' as claimed or actually working to make the plan happen?

As to Pharaoh, if you read Exodus you'll see that God manipulated Pharaoh to prevent him letting the Israelites go, which initially, he had intended to do.

[1213]

...Then I revise my argument to accommodate a revised doctrine...just to check, your doctrine is that Jesus' crucifixion was not a sacrifice to make a way to escape sin - death? ...

By what the Bible tells, Jesus forgave sins before his death, without any sacrifice or death. Therefore his death or any sacrifice was not required for to escape sin or death.

But, Jesus can be seen as a sacrifice, because he used his life for us. It could be compared to a soldier that sacrifices his life defending his country.

Ok. But we have to pin this one down. Was the Crucifixion (in your view) required to make salvation work, or not? ...

If you mean with salvation that sins are forgiven and so person is saved from the judgment that would come because of the sin, then I think it worked without death.

[TRANSPONDER]

...Then I revise my argument to accommodate a revised doctrine...just to check, your doctrine is that Jesus' crucifixion was not a sacrifice to make a way to escape sin - death? ...

By what the Bible tells, Jesus forgave sins before his death, without any sacrifice or death. Therefore his death or any sacrifice was not required for to escape sin or death.

But, Jesus can be seen as a sacrifice, because he used his life for us. It could be compared to a soldier that sacrifices his life defending his country.

Ok. But we have to pin this one down. Was the Crucifixion (in your view) required to make salvation work, or not? ...

If you mean with salvation that sins are forgiven and so person is saved from the judgment that would come because of the sin, then I think it worked without death.

You may be right, because if the Eden story is mythology then Sin can't be connected with death. But that wasn't my point. It was that release from sin and Salvation (whatever that means for eternal Life); depended on the crucifixion. it was whether Christian doctrine says that it was the act of crucifixion, rather than healing a withered arm or palsied persons picking up their pallet and popping off to the pub).was what released the Deserving from Sin and thus it had to happen for people to gain the possibility of Salvation, and thus those who worked for the crucifixion to happen (e.g Judas, the Sadducees and Satan) were carrying out God's plan, and those who were trying to get Jesus off, including Jesus himself, were working against it. It's just questioning that easy assertion that Satan was 'persecuting' Jesus and wondering whether he isn't rather doing God's work.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #86]

"Palsied persons picking up their pallet and popping off to the pub" has been added to my Journal List...and Name2Number list.

Palsied persons picking up their pallet and popping off to the pub = 650
Points of Reference - The Astonishing Simplicity of Everything = 650

It occurs to me that a simple instruction "Go - and sin no more" should suffice re "salvation"

It is fun ...as well as edgy...to explore these new avenues of thinking and learning and application.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #86]

"Palsied persons picking up their pallet and popping off to the pub" has been added to my Journal List...and Name2Number list.

Palsied persons picking up their pallet and popping off to the pub = 650
Points of Reference - The Astonishing Simplicity of Everything = 650

It occurs to me that a simple instruction "Go - and sin no more" should suffice re "salvation"

It is fun ...as well as edgy...to explore these new avenues of thinking and learning and application.

That of course is another discussion, whether it is Deeds (not sinning) rather than Faith (believing the correct doctrine) that makes for salvation. As to the other point re Satan and whether he is forging against God or for him (assuming any of the mythology is true anyway) makes more sense, I await comments.There is an easy answer, but I wonder whether anyone will spot it.

[1213]

...
You may be right, because if the Eden story is mythology then Sin can't be connected with death..

In the Bible sin is connected with death. The wage of sin is death. But, Bible shows sin can be forgiven without anyone dying.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
You may be right, because if the Eden story is mythology then Sin can't be connected with death..

In the Bible sin is connected with death. The wage of sin is death. But, Bible shows sin can be forgiven without anyone dying.

All right, then, in the Bible, sin is connected with death. Though the point of Eden is that we die because of sin. 'connected' is too loose to explain anything. But your relevant point is that sins can be forgiven without anyone dying. But the problem there is, Jesus could do that when he was around, but he was limited to those he interacted with. The point about the crucifixion is that it gives everyone an out from sin, and that's why the crucifixion matters and forgiving sins in person does not in fact, matter for the salvation of humankind,whereas the act of crucifixion does, doctrinally and rationally. No? Yes?