Where's God?

[POI]

Does he pop up in my dreams? Is he the one whom produces my goose-bumps? Is He the one giving me my "moral compass"? Is he only experienced during deep meditation? If I have enough faith, will he appear to me? But seriously. Where is he? I was a Christian for decades. I earnestly prayed for him to reach me, to no avail.

For debate: Why have I not felt his presence?

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

Do not answer yet. This topic has spawned from another unrelated topic. I decided to devote this large topic to itself. Below are some premises:

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.

A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).

[brunumb]

There are a variety of beings that exist in what we call the spirit world.

Please demonstrate the truth of this claim.

[brunumb]

[Replying to POI in post #18]

Your story doesn't make sense. If you were a believer then you would not be trying to communicate with God or waiting for him to communicate with you. Believers actually believe God is real. You clearly did not believe or else you would not be trying to get God to talk to you and when he did not you ran away.

Why did you expect God to communicate with you? Did you think maybe you were a prophet?

Are you saying that believers do not communicate with God?

[brunumb]

I believe in the Bible after i read it because it convinced me that it is the Word of God. You have that same evidence and choose not to believe it, for what reasons this is we can only speculate.

Belief is not a matter if choice. One is either convinced, or not. Ironically, many have gone from belief to non-belief simply by reading the Bible, all of it.

[Shem Yoshi]

I believe in the Bible after i read it because it convinced me that it is the Word of God. You have that same evidence and choose not to believe it, for what reasons this is we can only speculate.

Belief is not a matter if choice. One is either convinced, or not. Ironically, many have gone from belief to non-belief simply by reading the Bible, all of it.

I am not sure if i agree with you that belief is not a matter of choice. I believe in freewill... I suppose one example might be physicist Philipp Lenard who actively pushed back against Einstine's relativity.... The man had Nazi Germany backing him... Sure he could have just believed the truth of relativity, but chose not to.

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to brunumb in post #34]
I'm sorry you don't trust your own experiences. The fact that you think if you had a spiritual experience that meant you're gullible doesn't mean that everyone that has spiritual experiences are gullible. You obviously weren't raised to trust yourself, I'm sorry but I was. There's no reason for me to doubt what I experience in my own home while practicing my spirituality. It's a shame that that's how you basically view other human beings.

The difficulty here is in confirming personal experiences as legitimate spiritual experiences.

I absolutely believe you've experienced events you interpret to be spiritual, as I have one such event myself. Only in my admittedly atheist understanding, I chalk it up to a product of my mental makeup*.

I think, but with few exceptions, folks don't suffer any mental unfitness regarding these events. I just think human psychology is such that we oughtn trust anecdotal data in this matter.

(*I take meds for various mental and physical health issues, but was not on them at all during my 'spirititual event'. I can elaborate if asked, but as it's anecdotal, well there we go.)

[JoeyKnothead]

The truth of the matter is this. We ultimately dont know why you dont believe in God, it could be that you choose not to believe. None the less, there would be no way that we could validate that you are sincere, any one could just say that they are... And it is against the rules to question such things, that would be a necessary question for discussion of this debate.

Just as we can ask if you're sincere in your beliefs.

So in these debates we make claims, and we challenge claims, and we see how we fare. It's been my experience that so many theists are plenty proud to make claims, but awful shy to put any truth to em.

But I don't accuse such theists of being "insincere". I just figure they're interpreting the data incorrectly, and have a vested emotional interest in those beliefs.

I believe in the Bible after i read it because it convinced me that it is the Word of God. You have that same evidence and choose not to believe it, for what reasons this is we can only speculate.

I don't choose to believe, or not to believe.

I think your comment here is sound indication that where you rely on faith to support your beliefs, you're projecting your 'choice to believe' onto others.

See what I did? See how I minimized your "convinced" to just a choice?

You'd do well to understand that atheists have not made a "choice" here, but have rejected claims that can't be shown to be true. I can no more choose to believe these outlandish claims, as I can choose to enjoy them nasty little green peas the pretty thing says're good for me

[JoeyKnothead]

I believe in the Bible after i read it because it convinced me that it is the Word of God. You have that same evidence and choose not to believe it, for what reasons this is we can only speculate.

Belief is not a matter if choice. One is either convinced, or not. Ironically, many have gone from belief to non-belief simply by reading the Bible, all of it.

And some of us couldn't read no more'n a few pages before we had to stop wasting our time on it.

Give me a good reference book any day.

[brunumb]

I believe in the Bible after i read it because it convinced me that it is the Word of God. You have that same evidence and choose not to believe it, for what reasons this is we can only speculate.

Belief is not a matter if choice. One is either convinced, or not. Ironically, many have gone from belief to non-belief simply by reading the Bible, all of it.

I am not sure if i agree with you that belief is not a matter of choice. I believe in freewill... I suppose one example might be physicist Philipp Lenard who actively pushed back against Einstine's relativity.... The man had Nazi Germany backing him... Sure he could have just believed the truth of relativity, but chose not to.

OK then, use your free will to choose to sincerely believe that leprechauns come from Mars. If you can't, ask yourself why you can't. If your brain is not convinced that something is true you will not be able to simply choose to believe that it is true. You may outwardly state or express belief, but that is not the same thing. Did Lenard actually not believe that Einstein's theory was correct, because he actually had his own counter model?

[JoeyKnothead]

I believe in the Bible after i read it because it convinced me that it is the Word of God. You have that same evidence and choose not to believe it, for what reasons this is we can only speculate.

Belief is not a matter if choice. One is either convinced, or not. Ironically, many have gone from belief to non-belief simply by reading the Bible, all of it.

I am not sure if i agree with you that belief is not a matter of choice. I believe in freewill... I suppose one example might be physicist Philipp Lenard who actively pushed back against Einstine's relativity.... The man had Nazi Germany backing him... Sure he could have just believed the truth of relativity, but chose not to.

OK then, use your free will to choose to sincerely believe that leprechauns come from Mars. If you can't, ask yourself why you can't. If your brain is not convinced that something is true you will not be able to simply choose to believe that it is true. You may outwardly state or express belief, but that is not the same thing. Did Lenard actually not believe that Einstein's theory was correct, because he actually had his own counter model?

A most cromulent response.

What gets me about this issue is the stated or implied notion that atheists reject what they actually believe. It's no worse than saying the theist doesn't really believe in God, they just act like they do.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

You should stay faithful my friend.

Then I suggest you start, or continue to remain faithful, in all the competing god-faiths, for which you have not YET had personal experiences of such a god(s) speaking to you. And maybe, eventually, you will experience what all of them, in these other competing faiths, also experience

Do you personally believe these others are true?

I'd say my lack in belief, for all placed forth god claims to me, are roughly the same. I just so happen to give Christianity much more investigation time, as I was raised in it, and it continually surrounds me, via geography. Now can you please acknowledge what I said?

Then I suggest you start, or continue to remain faithful, in all the competing god-faiths, for which you have not YET had personal experiences of such a god(s) speaking to you. And maybe, eventually, you will experience what all of them, in these other competing faiths, also experience