As I write this, we are in the midst of Advent, a time when historically Christians fasted.
That practice is still observed in the Eastern Churches, but is not obligatory in the West. Even during Lent, many western Christians don't really fast, instead just refraining from a single type of food or a particular activity. To my knowledge, Evangelicals and many sectarian groups don't encourage fasting at all.
Question for debate: Should Christians fast more?
Should Christians fast more?
Moderator: Moderators
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21144
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 795 times
- Been thanked: 1129 times
- Contact:
Re: Should Christians fast more?
Post #11The Greek word employed (otan) means "whenever" as in how to behave IF one finds oneself in a particular situation and should not be confused with a command.
In a similar vien, the "when" of Matthew 6:16 means "in the event of" "should you" "whenever you ..." , not placing an obligation upon the listener to initiate the action.To illistrate: imagine a FIRE SAFETY manual said " when you see flames which are out of control, leave the premises immediately and alert emergeny services." Would you take the "when" to be an instruction to burn your house down?
JW
RELATED POSTS
Does Jesus saying "when" you fast (rather than "IF" you fast) amount to a command to fast?
viewtopic.php?p=1108569#p1108569
Were the words about fasting found at Matthew 17:21 part of the original text?
viewtopic.php?p=1108575#p1108575
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
-
- Banned
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:37 am
- Has thanked: 6 times
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: Should Christians fast more?
Post #12This would be the bare-minimum Christian's explanation for that verse; the modern mainstream believer who is taught that none of Scripture is a must; that we should just do what feels best to us in every instance and God will be happy with that.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:06 pmThe Greek word employed (otan) means "whenever" as in how to behave IF one finds oneself in a particular situation and should not be confused with a command.
In a similar vien, the "when" of Matthew 6:16 means "in the event of" "should you" "whenever you ..." , not placing an obligation upon the listener to initiate the action.To illistrate: imagine a FIRE SAFETY manual said " when you see flames which are out of control, leave the premises immediately and alert emergeny services." Would you take the "when" to be an instruction to burn your house down?
Correct?
Can we see your Greek interpretation for Matthew 17:21 please?
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21144
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 795 times
- Been thanked: 1129 times
- Contact:
Re: Should Christians fast more?
Post #13It is generally accepted by most bible scholars that Matthew 17:21 was not part of the original text.
FURTHER READING : Why is Matthew 17:21 missing or only a footnote in my Bible?
https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/q ... -in-bible/
RELATED POSTS
Does Jesus saying "when" you fast (rather than "IF" you fast) amount to a command to fast?
viewtopic.php?p=1108569#p1108569
Were the words about fasting found at Matthew 17:21 part of the original text?
viewtopic.php?p=1108575#p1108575
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
-
- Banned
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:37 am
- Has thanked: 6 times
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: Should Christians fast more?
Post #14A very sterile and generic response. Wouldn't you say?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:53 pmIt is generally accepted by most bible scholars that Matthew 17:21 was not part of the original text.
Is that not a reply that can be placed anywhere one doesn't care to, or isn't capable of, addressing in a Biblically-demonstrable way?
I think we would agree.
Try again.
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21144
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 795 times
- Been thanked: 1129 times
- Contact:
Re: Should Christians fast more?
Post #15I would say it was a factually sound, truthful one, wouldn't you ? If not, why not?Runner wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:01 pmA very sterile and generic response. Wouldn't you say?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:53 pmIt is generally accepted by most bible scholars that Matthew 17:21 was not part of the original text.
Not justifiably, no.
FURTHER READING : Why is Matthew 17:21 missing or only a footnote in my Bible?
https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/q ... -in-bible/
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
-
- Banned
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:37 am
- Has thanked: 6 times
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: Should Christians fast more?
Post #16Because it is a go-to, wild card, that is used to rebuke any verse from Scripture that doesn't support your position.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:09 pmI would say it was a factually sound, truthful one, wouldn't you ? If not, why not?Runner wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:01 pmA very sterile and generic response. Wouldn't you say?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:53 pmIt is generally accepted by most bible scholars that Matthew 17:21 was not part of the original text.
You can't claim you desire to have an intelligent debate if you don't even agree with the basis that is the foundation of said debate. If the Bible is so disjointed in your perspective to have every single verse be thrown into question as to its authenticity from the original text, there is no possibility of having a working, structured, debate with someone who rightfully embraces Scripture as the foundation of their beliefs. True Christians cannot cherry-pick only the parts of the Bible that support their preferred beliefs, they must take the Bible as a whole in order to understand exactly who God is and what He presents as the Truth.
You are not here to discuss the Truth if you do not adhere to the very handbook that defines what Truth is.
In that case, you are not here to debate, you are here to deny.
-
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4200
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 177 times
- Been thanked: 460 times
Re: Should Christians fast more?
Post #17Said the pot to the kettle?Runner wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:14 pmBecause it is a go-to, wild card, that is used to rebuke any verse from Scripture that doesn't support your position.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:09 pmI would say it was a factually sound, truthful one, wouldn't you ? If not, why not?Runner wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:01 pmA very sterile and generic response. Wouldn't you say?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:53 pmIt is generally accepted by most bible scholars that Matthew 17:21 was not part of the original text.
You can't claim you desire to have an intelligent debate if you don't even agree with the basis that is the foundation of said debate. If the Bible is so disjointed in your perspective to have every single verse be thrown into question as to its authenticity from the original text, there is no possibility of having a working, structured, debate with someone who rightfully embraces Scripture as the foundation of their beliefs. True Christians cannot cherry-pick only the parts of the Bible that support their preferred beliefs, they must take the Bible as a whole in order to understand exactly who God is and what He presents as the Truth.
You are not here to discuss the Truth if you do not adhere to the very handbook that defines what Truth is.
In that case, you are not here to debate, you are here to deny.
-
- Banned
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:37 am
- Has thanked: 6 times
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: Should Christians fast more?
Post #18Well, a kettle and a pot are not the same exact thing.
They are both containers, as God tells us that we are as people. We all contain information that we believe, a type of faith. But that information is not the same for everyone. Some containers contain Truth, others contain lies/untruth.
So, ... yes.
That would be an accurate description of our discussion, I guess.
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21144
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 795 times
- Been thanked: 1129 times
- Contact:
Re: Should Christians fast more?
Post #19JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:53 pmIt is generally accepted by most bible scholars that Matthew 17:21 was not part of the original text.
Runner wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:14 pmBecause it is a go-to, wild card, that is used to rebuke any verse from Scripture that doesn't support your position.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:09 pm
I would say it was a factually sound, truthful one, wouldn't you ? If not, why not?
By far the majority of bible texts are undisputed, those that are are usually for factualy sound reasons. The verse in question is not to be found in available earlier text which indicates a addition. If you wish to present an exposé as to why you think the verse is an authentic part of the original gospel, feel free to do so. Preferebly without the implied ad hominem.
JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
-
- Banned
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:37 am
- Has thanked: 6 times
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: Should Christians fast more?
Post #20Unfortunately, we really don't have much to discuss if you only adhere to the newest, most modern, counterfeits of Scripture.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:09 pmFURTHER READING : Why is Matthew 17:21 missing or only a footnote in my Bible?
https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/q ... -in-bible/
There is no foundation for us to stand upon together to discuss different perspectives.
Not all Bibles contain the most consistent Truth. And it is those that are closer in their dates of publication to the original source of the data that are the most accurate, not those that are further away as modern mainstream churchianity would have us believe.