How is there reality without God?

[EarthScienceguy]

Neils Bohr
"No Phenomenon is a phenomenon until it is an observed phenomenon." Or another way to say this is that a tree does not fall in a forest unless it is observed.

The only way for there to be an objective reality is if God is the constant observer everywhere.

Physicist John Archibald Wheeler: "It is wrong to think of the past as 'already existing' in all detail. The 'past' is theory. The past has no existence except as it is recorded in the present."

God is everywhere so He can observe everywhere and produce objective reality.

[William]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #255]

One can assume much.

Just a movie, but there is evidence in several studies that show the current generation is less intelligent than earlier ones, thus reversing the Flynn effect. It may be that high intelligence does not suit the individual as well as we think. Like flight in penguins, we just assume intelligence is THE direction evolution should point to. But that's the point, evolution has no direction, no goal, no purpose. It just, by random process, allows mutations to survive if they are suited to the current environment of an organism.

One of the theories put forth for the lowering of average human intelligence is the idea that less intelligent people tend to have more children than the extremely intelligent.

Is this suggesting that the lesser the intelligence, the increase of population gets higher, therefore...the apparent randomness is interpreted, that the process has no direction, no goal, no purpose?

If folk are less intelligent, how would this explain the increase in technology and construction?

High intelligence is vital to those processes and points to making things go in a certain intelligent direction, regardless of all the less-intelligently inclined. doing otherwise.

Which is to say, one cannot point to the dummies and declare "therefore," that a random process is doing all this stuff without knowing it is doing all this stuff....

[William]

Q: How is there reality without God?

The better question would be "How is there a reality without consciousness?" even if this means identifying "God" as the consciousness over all consciousness.

"Without consciousness to observe it, the Universe is not a real phenomenon."

[Miles]

.

Q: How is there reality without God?

My better question; Why, outside of Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Islamic or other religious considerations, anyone would think god is necessary for reality?


.

[Purple Knight]

I do not dispute that the AiG Statement of Faith is damning.

It's only damning for people who try and depict AiG as a scientific organization that employes people to do science. Absent that, I think it's actually quite transparent.

Yes, and don't forget that I actually agree with you here. Not only do I not trust AiG, but you have very good reasons not to, and I share them. I don't believe that the earth is 6000 years old and I certainly don't believe an omnipotent bearded guy made it. It has too much beauty to be made by any one life form. It's clearly not made for man, otherwise why the thermophiles at vents so deep in the ocean that no light reaches?

I think it's okay to bring up motivation when it's clear, which is why I can bring up the profit motive in science.

LOL...well, I'm a scientist (biologist) and I can assure you me and my colleagues are anything but wealthy. It's not like the parking lots at our conferences and symposia are packed with expensive cars and we all live in mansions. The vast, vast majority of us toil in anonymity and earn middle class wages. One of the first things we're told after we decide to go into science is "You're not going to get rich, you know".

You don't have to be wealthy to experience a profit motive. And if you were dishonest, willing to fudge your data and get the result some big company wanted, you would probably earn more.

[JoeyKnothead]

Q: How is there reality without God?

The better question would be "How is there a reality without consciousness?" even if this means identifying "God" as the consciousness over all consciousness.

Reality would exist whether consciousness was available or not. It's just that it's so much cooler to know we can observe and interact with it.

[William]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #265]

Reality would exist whether consciousness was available or not.

Any universe which is not observed, may as well not exist.

[Jose Fly]

Yes, and don't forget that I actually agree with you here. Not only do I not trust AiG, but you have very good reasons not to, and I share them. I don't believe that the earth is 6000 years old and I certainly don't believe an omnipotent bearded guy made it. It has too much beauty to be made by any one life form. It's clearly not made for man, otherwise why the thermophiles at vents so deep in the ocean that no light reaches?

You don't have to be wealthy to experience a profit motive. And if you were dishonest, willing to fudge your data and get the result some big company wanted, you would probably earn more.

Nope. We had a colleague who dipped his toe into manipulating data to get his preferred answers. He was very quickly found out by his peers (we can usually recognize that sort of thing when we see it), reported, fired, and discredited.

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #265]

Reality would exist whether consciousness was available or not.

Any universe which is not observed, may as well not exist.

"May as well not exist" doesn't get us to "does not exist".

[William]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #265]

Reality would exist whether consciousness was available or not.

Any universe which is not observed, may as well not exist.

"May as well not exist" doesn't get us to "does not exist".

It is however, a step in a better direction.

It allows us to understand that an observer is necessary to that end. The answer "does not exist" cannot come from anything else but an observer.

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #265]

Reality would exist whether consciousness was available or not.

Any universe which is not observed, may as well not exist.

"May as well not exist" doesn't get us to "does not exist".

It is however, a step in a better direction.

It allows us to understand that an observer is necessary to that end. The answer "does not exist" cannot come from anything else but an observer.

If all consciousness were eliminated throughout the entire universe, would it fail to exist?

It strikes me as a bit of hubris to think only consciousness matters in this questioning of reality.