There are many verses in the Bible about God's predestination. https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination Why would a good God predestine anyone to do evil? Surely, a good God would predestine all to do good? Does the existence of evil prove that God is evil? Surely, a good God would have made all living things to be autotrophs instead of making some autotrophs, some herbivores, some carnivores, some omnivores, and some parasites? Here are some examples of evil events which caused or are causing suffering, deaths, and injustices:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll
https://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter
Is God evil?
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Re: Is God evil?
Post #81I don't consider nature to be evil. Nature is not conscious. To be evil, one has to deliberately cause harm.William wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:01 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #76]
I am not religious myself. I too have gone through theistic thinking, but my conclusions are different from your own, nor do I consider nature to be evil. Perhaps that part of your religious learning has yet to be exorcised...or did you pick up that theme through atheism?I used to be very religious so I can totally understand.
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Re: Is God evil?
Post #82It's a nice video. Thank you for sharing. I have two problems with it:Athetotheist wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:15 pmCompassionist wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 6:33 am There are many verses in the Bible about God's predestination. https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination Why would a good God predestine anyone to do evil? Surely, a good God would predestine all to do good? Does the existence of evil prove that God is evil? Surely, a good God would have made all living things to be autotrophs instead of making some autotrophs, some herbivores, some carnivores, some omnivores, and some parasites? Here are some examples of evil events which caused or are causing suffering, deaths, and injustices:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll
https://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter
1. Good and evil, happiness and sadness, health and illness are not distributed evenly. If they were, all living things would have equal length of life, equal quality of life, and equal standards of living.
2. If God had made all living things all-knowing and all-powerful, they could protect themselves from all harm but he failed to do it.
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Re: Is God evil?
Post #83Therefore, I can conclude that your problem with evil is what?Compassionist wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:07 amI don't consider nature to be evil. Nature is not conscious. To be evil, one has to deliberately cause harm.William wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:01 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #76]
I am not religious myself. I too have gone through theistic thinking, but my conclusions are different from your own, nor do I consider nature to be evil. Perhaps that part of your religious learning has yet to be exorcised...or did you pick up that theme through atheism?I used to be very religious so I can totally understand.
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Re: Is God evil?
Post #84It's impossible to prove lots of things e.g. I can't prove to you that I am not a philosophical zombie. I also can't prove to you that I am not a simulation or an illusion. The same goes for you. You can't prove to me that you are not a philosophical zombie. You also can't prove to me that you are not a simulation or an illusion.The Tanager wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:46 amIt’s not “determinism unless proven otherwise”. Above all you’ve done is say that these things are determined, not shown why one should think they are. You need to prove your claim that our wills are determined. Remember, I’m not saying every choice is wide-open free, but that within limitations (some we all have, some only some have) we can have free choices.Compassionist wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:37 pmThe way we make decisions is determined by our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Have you read "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for A Hat" by the neurologist Oliver Sacks? The book has many fascinating and tragic stories of people with neurological afflictions. One of the stories is about a man who has visual agnosia. He can see but he mislabels what he sees. So, he mistook his wife for a hat. The decision-making process in his brain is different from the decision-making process in a healthy brain. The deliberations in our brain are the result of the electrochemical activities of the brain. These activities are the consequence of genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. The process is deterministic. Please prove to me how free will can exist in brains made of molecules.
If you are saying it is illogical for a free will to exist with a brain made of molecules, then you need to give that argument because I don’t see why that would be the case.
Without God, how is anything truly unjust? On what basis do you define injustice? Saying “what harms is unjust” is just changing out one term (harm) for the one asked about (unjust), making them synonyms. On what basis do you define what is harmful?Compassionist wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:37 pmAlso, please prove to me how God is real and good given all the past, present and future suffering, injustice, and deaths.
Define how you are using love. Intense feelings? Having an interest in something? Willing the good of another? Something else?Compassionist wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:37 pmAs I have said before, love does not require free will. It is a product our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. I love all living things and want all to be forever happy. I am compelled by my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences to feel this way. There is nothing free about my will.
I responded generally that I don’t think those websites rightly consider context in many of their claims, thus misunderstanding the whole picture and that if you wanted to go over specifics, we could do that. I’m still open to that.Compassionist wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:37 pmThe two websites I referred you to list lots of atrocities carried out either directly by God or by followers of God obeying commands from God. Committing atrocities and ordering his followers to commit atrocities make God evil.
But, assume that there are still atrocities when all is said and done. How does that speak against the existence of God rather than against the belief that the Bible accurately portrays God?
It's also impossible to prove the non-existence of anything e.g. unicorns, big foot, gods, aliens, etc.
I have seen the effects of genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. It's not possible to prove or disprove determinism. However, some things can be proven if one assumes that our sensory perceptions are not being doctored by simulations or illusions. For example, I can prove that humans with XY chromosomes are males and XX chromosomes are females. I can also prove that if you deprive me of oxygen, water and food, I will die. I can also prove that if you put me in an oven and set it to 200 degrees Celsius and switch it on, I will die. I can also prove that if I experience something it affects my choices e.g. I put on a coat if I feel cold. You keep talking about free choices without proving that organisms make free choices. Please prove organisms make free choices. I bet you can't. In the examples above, I prove that genes (XY and XX chromosomes), environments (200 degrees Celsius oven), nutrients (lack of oxygen, water and food), and experiences (being cold) determine what happens.
Here are some things that I desperately want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:
1. Go back in time and prevent all suffering, death, and injustice.
2. Make all living things all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, and forever happy. This way no one will ever be harmed by anyone or anything.
Here are some things I do (or will do) even though I don't want to do them:
1. Breathe
2. Eat
3. Drink
4. Sleep
5. Dream
7. Pee
8. Poo
9. Fart
10. Burp
11. Sneeze
12. Cough
13. Age
14. Get ill
15. Get injured
16. Sweat
17. Cry
18. Snore
19. Suffer
20. Die
I am clearly not a free agent with free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. We are all prisoners of causality who are thrust into existence without consent in a horrific and unjust world. I wish I was never conceived but I can't choose to prevent my existence.
Some people say that quantum indeterminacy gives us free will but it does not. Quantum indeterminacy averages out at the macroscopic level. You don't see things like quantum superposition at the macroscopic level. When one tosses a coin, whether it will land on the head or the tail is determined by variables such as the pre-flip position, the strength of the flipping, the mass of the coin, wind velocity, etc. Another example is the weather. Whether we get sunshine or rain or tornado or snow, is determined by variables. Even our best supercomputers can't predict the weather with 100% accuracy even though it is entirely deterministic. It's just too complex to calculate the products of all the variables interacting.
By the word 'love', I mean all its different meanings. Love occurs as a result of genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. If you can prove that free will is a prerequisite for love, please do.
God committed genocide many times in the Bible e.g. Noah's flood. If the Bible is true, then God is real and evil. If the Bible is false, then God is imaginary and evil the way Voldemort is imaginary and evil. I am leaning towards God being imaginary and evil because the claims of the Bible don't mesh with what we know using the scientific method.
God is not necessary to define good and evil, justice and injustice. We can use our experiences to decide these things. It's good to live and help live. It's evil to harm and kill. I can define these things without requiring God. How does God give us anything objective? A sentient being can't have any objective truth because all our truths are perceived through subjective sensory perceptions. For example, I, you, and billions of other organisms can see the Sun in the sky. However, this could be a simulation or an illusion. We don't have any way to be perceiving anything objectively as all perceptions are subjective. There are two kinds of subjective truths. They are:
1. Exclusive Subjective Truths e.g. thoughts, emotions, beliefs, interpretations, dreams, and hallucinations experienced by a human.
2. Shared Subjective Truths e.g. two or more organisms watching the Sun in the sky.
Last edited by Compassionist on Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:55 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Is God evil?
Post #85I am upset about all the suffering, injustice, and deaths. It's possible that God is evil and real and is the cause of all the suffering, injustice, and deaths.William wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:31 amTherefore, I can conclude that your problem with evil is what?Compassionist wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:07 amI don't consider nature to be evil. Nature is not conscious. To be evil, one has to deliberately cause harm.William wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:01 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #76]
I am not religious myself. I too have gone through theistic thinking, but my conclusions are different from your own, nor do I consider nature to be evil. Perhaps that part of your religious learning has yet to be exorcised...or did you pick up that theme through atheism?I used to be very religious so I can totally understand.
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Re: Is God evil?
Post #86Therefore, is it that you find refuge in atheism as a means of dealing with the problem of evil, but atheism doesn't help you re being upset about all the suffering, injustice, and deaths?Compassionist wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:40 amI am upset about all the suffering, injustice, and deaths. It's possible that God is evil and real and is the cause of all the suffering, injustice, and deaths.William wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:31 amTherefore, I can conclude that your problem with evil is what?Compassionist wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:07 amI don't consider nature to be evil. Nature is not conscious. To be evil, one has to deliberately cause harm.William wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:01 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #76]
I am not religious myself. I too have gone through theistic thinking, but my conclusions are different from your own, nor do I consider nature to be evil. Perhaps that part of your religious learning has yet to be exorcised...or did you pick up that theme through atheism?I used to be very religious so I can totally understand.
The problem of evil still exists for you, even when GOD is removed from your equations?
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Re: Is God evil?
Post #87I don't call it the problem of evil. I call it the problems of suffering, injustice, and death. I am an Agnostic Atheist as I can't decide if God is evil and imaginary or evil and real.William wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:02 pmTherefore, is it that you find refuge in atheism as a means of dealing with the problem of evil, but atheism doesn't help you re being upset about all the suffering, injustice, and deaths?Compassionist wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:40 amI am upset about all the suffering, injustice, and deaths. It's possible that God is evil and real and is the cause of all the suffering, injustice, and deaths.William wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:31 amTherefore, I can conclude that your problem with evil is what?Compassionist wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:07 amI don't consider nature to be evil. Nature is not conscious. To be evil, one has to deliberately cause harm.William wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:01 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #76]
I am not religious myself. I too have gone through theistic thinking, but my conclusions are different from your own, nor do I consider nature to be evil. Perhaps that part of your religious learning has yet to be exorcised...or did you pick up that theme through atheism?I used to be very religious so I can totally understand.
The problem of evil still exists for you, even when GOD is removed from your equations?
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Re: Is God evil?
Post #88I am an Agnostic Neutral which means I haven't decided that, should GOD exist, that GOD therefore, has to be regarded as evil.Compassionist wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:06 pmI don't call it the problem of evil. I call it the problems of suffering, injustice, and death. I am an Agnostic Atheist as I can't decide if God is evil and imaginary or evil and real.William wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:02 pmTherefore, is it that you find refuge in atheism as a means of dealing with the problem of evil, but atheism doesn't help you re being upset about all the suffering, injustice, and deaths?Compassionist wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:40 amI am upset about all the suffering, injustice, and deaths. It's possible that God is evil and real and is the cause of all the suffering, injustice, and deaths.William wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:31 amTherefore, I can conclude that your problem with evil is what?Compassionist wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:07 amI don't consider nature to be evil. Nature is not conscious. To be evil, one has to deliberately cause harm.William wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:01 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #76]
I am not religious myself. I too have gone through theistic thinking, but my conclusions are different from your own, nor do I consider nature to be evil. Perhaps that part of your religious learning has yet to be exorcised...or did you pick up that theme through atheism?I used to be very religious so I can totally understand.
The problem of evil still exists for you, even when GOD is removed from your equations?
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Re: Is God evil?
Post #89[Replying to The Tanager in post #60]
William: Greetings OAI - I am not a robot.
Could you please give feedback on the following, and present it in a brief paragraph in the style of Bob Dylan. Thanks
__________________
P1: Why do you think that God is real and not evil?
As I said before, I can't decide whether God is evil and imaginary or evil and real. A real and good God who is all-knowing and all-powerful would have prevented all suffering, injustice, and deaths by making all living things autotrophs and all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful.
P2: The main reason is that a God who did this would seem to me to destroy the possibility of love. I think a world with love (which necessarily provides the ability for evil) is better than a world without love and perfect moral actions.
P3: P1 gives no other option for God, except that God must be evil, if God exists
P2 expresses the idea that if P2 had of created the universe, that is the way P2 would-a done it.
It is possible that GOD came from a world without love and perfect moral actions, and thus created the Universe which provided said GOD with a way in which to examine those experiences...but then there are all those 'before the beginning" mythologies to incorporate...talk of Angels fighting and such...and how humans were created and thrown into that mix...how the evil was around long before humans came along an invented their version of it.
__________________
OAI: "In this world of pain and strife,
Some say God is real, some say He's not,
But I can't decide if He's evil or just,
For if He's all-knowing and all-powerful,
Why does He let suffering and death go on?
But then I think, a world without love,
Is not a world I'd choose to live in,
So maybe a God who allows for evil,
Is the only way for true love to exist."
_______________________________
Is what AI answered, the direction you are coming from Tanager?
_______________________________
William: Thanks - Can you now simply feedback on the content, in normal conversational style.
OAI: Sure, the content of your writing raises some interesting points about the existence and nature of God. It suggests that if God is real and all-knowing and all-powerful, then it would be difficult to understand why there is suffering and injustice in the world. However, the content also suggests that a world without the possibility of love would be worse than a world with the possibility of love, even if that means the existence of evil. It also mentions the idea that maybe God created the universe in order to experience love and moral actions. It brings up the idea of various religious creation myths, and how they might be incorporated into this idea. Overall, it's a thought-provoking exploration of the relationship between God, evil and love.
William: Greetings OAI - I am not a robot.
Could you please give feedback on the following, and present it in a brief paragraph in the style of Bob Dylan. Thanks
__________________
P1: Why do you think that God is real and not evil?
As I said before, I can't decide whether God is evil and imaginary or evil and real. A real and good God who is all-knowing and all-powerful would have prevented all suffering, injustice, and deaths by making all living things autotrophs and all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful.
P2: The main reason is that a God who did this would seem to me to destroy the possibility of love. I think a world with love (which necessarily provides the ability for evil) is better than a world without love and perfect moral actions.
P3: P1 gives no other option for God, except that God must be evil, if God exists
P2 expresses the idea that if P2 had of created the universe, that is the way P2 would-a done it.
It is possible that GOD came from a world without love and perfect moral actions, and thus created the Universe which provided said GOD with a way in which to examine those experiences...but then there are all those 'before the beginning" mythologies to incorporate...talk of Angels fighting and such...and how humans were created and thrown into that mix...how the evil was around long before humans came along an invented their version of it.
__________________
OAI: "In this world of pain and strife,
Some say God is real, some say He's not,
But I can't decide if He's evil or just,
For if He's all-knowing and all-powerful,
Why does He let suffering and death go on?
But then I think, a world without love,
Is not a world I'd choose to live in,
So maybe a God who allows for evil,
Is the only way for true love to exist."
_______________________________
Is what AI answered, the direction you are coming from Tanager?
_______________________________
William: Thanks - Can you now simply feedback on the content, in normal conversational style.
OAI: Sure, the content of your writing raises some interesting points about the existence and nature of God. It suggests that if God is real and all-knowing and all-powerful, then it would be difficult to understand why there is suffering and injustice in the world. However, the content also suggests that a world without the possibility of love would be worse than a world with the possibility of love, even if that means the existence of evil. It also mentions the idea that maybe God created the universe in order to experience love and moral actions. It brings up the idea of various religious creation myths, and how they might be incorporated into this idea. Overall, it's a thought-provoking exploration of the relationship between God, evil and love.
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Re: Is God evil?
Post #90[Replying to Compassionist in post #82
Your argument presumes that the existence we presently experience is the only existence there is.1. Good and evil, happiness and sadness, health and illness are not distributed evenly. If they were, all living things would have equal length of life, equal quality of life, and equal standards of living.
2. If God had made all living things all-knowing and all-powerful, they could protect themselves from all harm but he failed to do it.