Trinity from Elohim?
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Trinity from Elohim?
Post #1Christians argue that elohim proves the trinity. Since elohim is plural (gods), it must reveal the plurality of God in the Trinity. God called Moses elohim in Exodus 4:16. Moses is one, not many ( other humans are individually called elohim as well, but Moses will do here). Individual heathen gods are also called elohim. Chemosh is called elohim, Baal is called elohim, Molech is called elohim etc. Why does elohim denote God is a trinity, but the rest are not trinities? Are we to presume Moses is a trinity, Chemosh is a trinity, Baal is a trinity, etc. Please stick with the topic. I don't want to entertain arguments about the trinity from non-elohim topics ( i.g., Paul said, the New Testament said, Joseph Smith said, the Pope said, etc. Please stick with how elohim means trinity. Thank you )
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Re: Trinity from Elohim?
Post #2I don't think that would be the argument. At least, I would never argue that Elohim is plural thus it must be a plural of 3. But we do see that these other examples you give elohim is about a being that is plural in someway. For examples, humans are a composite of soul and matter(body). Humans are a composite of other physical things, such as atoms. So there is a type of plurality to those called elohim even though they are one individual. BTW, in Trinity God is one individual. Persons doesn't mean individuals in the doctrine.Conversator wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:01 pm Christians argue that elohim proves the trinity. Since elohim is plural (gods), it must reveal the plurality of God in the Trinity. God called Moses elohim in Exodus 4:16. Moses is one, not many ( other humans are individually called elohim as well, but Moses will do here). Individual heathen gods are also called elohim. Chemosh is called elohim, Baal is called elohim, Molech is called elohim etc. Why does elohim denote God is a trinity, but the rest are not trinities? Are we to presume Moses is a trinity, Chemosh is a trinity, Baal is a trinity, etc. Please stick with the topic. I don't want to entertain arguments about the trinity from non-elohim topics ( i.g., Paul said, the New Testament said, Joseph Smith said, the Pope said, etc. Please stick with how elohim means trinity. Thank you )
It is hard to say why Jews used the plural Elohim for God or one individual. They also use panim, which is plural for faces, but it means face (singular) as well, depending on the context. This could be because a face of made up of eyes, nose, mouth, etc. Water, even when talking about a single body of water is mayim (plural).
So we do see ancient Jews used plural nouns to refer to single objects but it is because those objects were made up of some type of plurality.
It could be that case they saw that God must have some type of plurality, though he is one essence. For example, anyone can see that if God exists then he has the power to exist, self-subsistent. And if G od has anything similar to a mind (logos), then there is a distinction here. It is not a distinction that multiplies God, but it is a distinction.
There is a difference between the being itself that has a thought, and the thought itself. If I think if a flying pig, I am not that thought itself. I am not the thought of the flying pig, but it is also not some other individual. It is my thought, yet it is distinct from my existence. I can exist even if I never think the thought of a flying pig. The thought of the flying pig depends on me thinking it. Once I the being with the power to think stop thinking the thought vanishes.
This would be so with God as well, but with God the thoughts are eternal, yet they are being generated by his being. Eternal generation. BTW, this eternal generation is precisely what the Word (God the Son) is.
So I can see someone formulating an argument around these ideas.
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Re: Trinity from Elohim?
Post #3Fascinating, so the Jews had no hesitation calling God elohim or a human elohim, because they "imagined" a plurality in both God and man. What say you of Chemosh or Baal? Did Jews imagine Baal ( a nonexistent entity to their mind) to have plurality in its supposed nature? Or was it some form of acquiescence ? i.e., if Baal existed it would have plurality? Your approach is interesting!AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:25 pmI don't think that would be the argument. At least, I would never argue that Elohim is plural thus it must be a plural of 3. But we do see that these other examples you give elohim is about a being that is plural in someway. For examples, humans are a composite of soul and matter(body). Humans are a composite of other physical things, such as atoms. So there is a type of plurality to those called elohim even though they are one individual. BTW, in Trinity God is one individual. Persons doesn't mean individuals in the doctrine.Conversator wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:01 pm Christians argue that elohim proves the trinity. Since elohim is plural (gods), it must reveal the plurality of God in the Trinity. God called Moses elohim in Exodus 4:16. Moses is one, not many ( other humans are individually called elohim as well, but Moses will do here). Individual heathen gods are also called elohim. Chemosh is called elohim, Baal is called elohim, Molech is called elohim etc. Why does elohim denote God is a trinity, but the rest are not trinities? Are we to presume Moses is a trinity, Chemosh is a trinity, Baal is a trinity, etc. Please stick with the topic. I don't want to entertain arguments about the trinity from non-elohim topics ( i.g., Paul said, the New Testament said, Joseph Smith said, the Pope said, etc. Please stick with how elohim means trinity. Thank you )
It is hard to say why Jews used the plural Elohim for God or one individual. They also use panim, which is plural for faces, but it means face (singular) as well, depending on the context. This could be because a face of made up of eyes, nose, mouth, etc. Water, even when talking about a single body of water is mayim (plural).
So we do see ancient Jews used plural nouns to refer to single objects but it is because those objects were made up of some type of plurality.
It could be that case they saw that God must have some type of plurality, though he is one essence. For example, anyone can see that if God exists then he has the power to exist, self-subsistent. And if G od has anything similar to a mind (logos), then there is a distinction here. It is not a distinction that multiplies God, but it is a distinction.
There is a difference between the being itself that has a thought, and the thought itself. If I think if a flying pig, I am not that thought itself. I am not the thought of the flying pig, but it is also not some other individual. It is my thought, yet it is distinct from my existence. I can exist even if I never think the thought of a flying pig. The thought of the flying pig depends on me thinking it. Once I the being with the power to think stop thinking the thought vanishes.
This would be so with God as well, but with God the thoughts are eternal, yet they are being generated by his being. Eternal generation. BTW, this eternal generation is precisely what the Word (God the Son) is.
So I can see someone formulating an argument around these ideas.
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Re: Trinity from Elohim?
Post #4Thus plurality wouldn't have any special significance at all. Better yet: if plurality denotes a specific complexity of an individual; be it God's nature, man's nature, or even a false god's hypothetical nature, then this complexity is no longer specific, but rather a general status anything would naturally have. Thus the same narratives that condemn Baal, have no reservations calling it elohim nonetheless, for if it did exist, it would have a plurality, a complexity. I'm texting this by phone at work, pardon it's appearance. By this logic everything is a trinity. The trinity is just part of the crowd. If the trinity is a communal being, a triplet fellowship, what is this triplet fellowship of man, or a false god?
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Re: Trinity from Elohim?
Post #5Elohim
“The common plural form ‘elohim,’ a plural of majesty.” - Unger and White, 1980, p. 159.
“Pluralis Majestatis: Biblical Hebrew
"The term ‘majestic plural’ or pluralis majestatis refers to the use of a plural word to refer honorifically to a single person or entity. It is also called the ‘plural of respect’, the ‘honorific plural’, the ‘plural of excellence’, or the ‘plural of intensity’. In the Hebrew Bible such plural forms are most commonly used when referring to the God of Israel, e.g., adonim ‘I am a master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Mal. 1.6), although it can also be used when referring to a human, e.g., abraham adonaw ‘Abraham his master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Gen. 24.9), an object, e.g. gibroteka ‘your grave (lit. ‘graves’)’ (2 Kgs 22.20), ...." - Encyclopedia of Hebrew Language and Linguistics, p. 145, vol. 3, 2013.
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says:
“It is characteristic of Heb[rew] that extension, magnitude, and dignity, as well as actual multiplicity, are expressed by the pl[ural].” - Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1984 ed., Vol. II, p. 1265.
“The common plural form ‘elohim,’ a plural of majesty.” - Unger and White, 1980, p. 159.
“Pluralis Majestatis: Biblical Hebrew
"The term ‘majestic plural’ or pluralis majestatis refers to the use of a plural word to refer honorifically to a single person or entity. It is also called the ‘plural of respect’, the ‘honorific plural’, the ‘plural of excellence’, or the ‘plural of intensity’. In the Hebrew Bible such plural forms are most commonly used when referring to the God of Israel, e.g., adonim ‘I am a master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Mal. 1.6), although it can also be used when referring to a human, e.g., abraham adonaw ‘Abraham his master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Gen. 24.9), an object, e.g. gibroteka ‘your grave (lit. ‘graves’)’ (2 Kgs 22.20), ...." - Encyclopedia of Hebrew Language and Linguistics, p. 145, vol. 3, 2013.
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says:
“It is characteristic of Heb[rew] that extension, magnitude, and dignity, as well as actual multiplicity, are expressed by the pl[ural].” - Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1984 ed., Vol. II, p. 1265.
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Re: Trinity from Elohim?
Post #6Whatever one's view of elohim; so far expressed by this forum as: plurality, multiplicity, majestic platitude, and royal honor; must be applied to both the human and the idol as well. You can't conjure up one meaning for God, and dismiss its application to a human, or an idle.
The Israelites shared the same literary technique of their contemporaries, i.e., referring to a god, or a human, or an idol as elohim. Neither Israel, or their contemporaries had any issue using a generic term in this way. They did have issue with using a personal name that way. For Israel, El Shaddai and HaShem ( yhvh) were special names ( masculine singular btw), and were only used for God, never for a human or an idol. Just as their contemporaries reserved their personal names only for the specific deity.
The Israelites shared the same literary technique of their contemporaries, i.e., referring to a god, or a human, or an idol as elohim. Neither Israel, or their contemporaries had any issue using a generic term in this way. They did have issue with using a personal name that way. For Israel, El Shaddai and HaShem ( yhvh) were special names ( masculine singular btw), and were only used for God, never for a human or an idol. Just as their contemporaries reserved their personal names only for the specific deity.
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Re: Trinity from Elohim?
Post #7.
"Elohim, singular Eloah, (Hebrew: God), the God of Israel in the Old Testament. A plural of majesty, the term Elohim—though sometimes used for other deities, such as the Moabite god Chemosh, the Sidonian goddess Astarte, and also for other majestic beings such as angels, kings, judges (the Old Testament shofeṭim), and the Messiah—is usually employed in the Old Testament for the one and only God of Israel, whose personal name was revealed to Moses as YHWH, or Yahweh (q.v.). When referring to Yahweh, elohim very often is accompanied by the article ha-, to mean, in combination, “the God,” and sometimes with a further identification Elohim ḥayyim, meaning “the living God.”
Though Elohim is plural in form, it is understood in the singular sense. Thus, in Genesis the words, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth,” Elohim is monotheistic in connotation, though its grammatical structure seems polytheistic. The Israelites probably borrowed the Canaanite plural noun Elohim and made it singular in meaning in their cultic practices and theological reflections. "
source
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"Elohim, singular Eloah, (Hebrew: God), the God of Israel in the Old Testament. A plural of majesty, the term Elohim—though sometimes used for other deities, such as the Moabite god Chemosh, the Sidonian goddess Astarte, and also for other majestic beings such as angels, kings, judges (the Old Testament shofeṭim), and the Messiah—is usually employed in the Old Testament for the one and only God of Israel, whose personal name was revealed to Moses as YHWH, or Yahweh (q.v.). When referring to Yahweh, elohim very often is accompanied by the article ha-, to mean, in combination, “the God,” and sometimes with a further identification Elohim ḥayyim, meaning “the living God.”
Though Elohim is plural in form, it is understood in the singular sense. Thus, in Genesis the words, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth,” Elohim is monotheistic in connotation, though its grammatical structure seems polytheistic. The Israelites probably borrowed the Canaanite plural noun Elohim and made it singular in meaning in their cultic practices and theological reflections. "
source
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Re: Trinity from Elohim?
Post #8I have never heard a Christian argue that Elohim proves the trinity, but let’s give the argument a fair shake. The first problem I see is that God did not call Moses Elohim. In Exodus 4:16 God said that Moses would “speak with the mouth of Elohim.” Moses had the authority to speak for Elohim, but Elohim did not say that Moses was Elohim.Conversator wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:01 pm Christians argue that elohim proves the trinity. Since elohim is plural (gods), it must reveal the plurality of God in the Trinity. God called Moses elohim in Exodus 4:16. Moses is one, not many ( other humans are individually called elohim as well, but Moses will do here). Individual heathen gods are also called elohim. Chemosh is called elohim, Baal is called elohim, Molech is called elohim etc. Why does elohim denote God is a trinity, but the rest are not trinities? Are we to presume Moses is a trinity, Chemosh is a trinity, Baal is a trinity, etc. Please stick with the topic. I don't want to entertain arguments about the trinity from non-elohim topics ( i.g., Paul said, the New Testament said, Joseph Smith said, the Pope said, etc. Please stick with how elohim means trinity. Thank you )
As an analogy, in negotiations a person might have the authority to speak for the United State’s federal government, but that is not calling that individual US federal government.
You claim that other people are individually called Elohim. Can you give an example of that so that we can fully consider your argument?
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Re: Trinity from Elohim?
Post #9You said, Exodus 4:16 says, " speak with the mouth of elohom", it actually says, " he shall speak for you to the people, and he will be as a mouth for you and you will be elohim to him." Aaron is the mouth, the spokesman, Moses is elohim. I don't see the point in going beyond Exodus 4:16 with you, until you properly understand it in the first place. I could easily give the full list of humans who were individually called elohim, but I'm still waiting for intellectual honesty to at least begin the conversation.bjs1 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:39 pmI have never heard a Christian argue that Elohim proves the trinity, but let’s give the argument a fair shake. The first problem I see is that God did not call Moses Elohim. In Exodus 4:16 God said that Moses would “speak with the mouth of Elohim.” Moses had the authority to speak for Elohim, but Elohim did not say that Moses was Elohim.Conversator wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:01 pm Christians argue that elohim proves the trinity. Since elohim is plural (gods), it must reveal the plurality of God in the Trinity. God called Moses elohim in Exodus 4:16. Moses is one, not many ( other humans are individually called elohim as well, but Moses will do here). Individual heathen gods are also called elohim. Chemosh is called elohim, Baal is called elohim, Molech is called elohim etc. Why does elohim denote God is a trinity, but the rest are not trinities? Are we to presume Moses is a trinity, Chemosh is a trinity, Baal is a trinity, etc. Please stick with the topic. I don't want to entertain arguments about the trinity from non-elohim topics ( i.g., Paul said, the New Testament said, Joseph Smith said, the Pope said, etc. Please stick with how elohim means trinity. Thank you )
As an analogy, in negotiations a person might have the authority to speak for the United State’s federal government, but that is not calling that individual US federal government.
You claim that other people are individually called Elohim. Can you give an example of that so that we can fully consider your argument?
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Re: Trinity from Elohim?
Post #10Actually I've abandoned all hope here. I've yet to encounter any intellectual honesty here. I'm done with this post
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