Neils Bohr
"No Phenomenon is a phenomenon until it is an observed phenomenon." Or another way to say this is that a tree does not fall in a forest unless it is observed.
The only way for there to be an objective reality is if God is the constant observer everywhere.
Physicist John Archibald Wheeler: "It is wrong to think of the past as 'already existing' in all detail. The 'past' is theory. The past has no existence except as it is recorded in the present."
God is everywhere so He can observe everywhere and produce objective reality.
How is there reality without God?
Moderator: Moderators
- EarthScienceguy
- Guru
- Posts: 2192
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:53 pm
- Has thanked: 33 times
- Been thanked: 43 times
- Contact:
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14187
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 912 times
- Been thanked: 1644 times
- Contact:
Re: How is there reality without God?
Post #311[Replying to The Barbarian in post #309]
Would you agree?
The only way to escape the contradiction "Since an omnipotent Creator would be apart from His creation, and not contained by it," with "an omnipotent entity can be omnipresent" would be to agree that the Creator can do both, simultaneously.By definition, an omnipotent entity can be omnipresent, since it would not be omnipotent, otherwise.
Would you agree?
- Difflugia
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3046
- Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
- Location: Michigan
- Has thanked: 3276 times
- Been thanked: 2023 times
Re: How is there reality without God?
Post #312OK.EarthScienceguy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:21 pmIf God did observe all quantum states then there would be no such thing as free will.
"Observer" means something specific in physics. Your argument is that gods are somehow needed to be that specific thing in order for the universe to exist. Or at least I think that's your argument.EarthScienceguy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:21 pmWould the observation of a cat collapse the wave function or does it take a human with a soul to collapse the wave function? Is an observation that collapses the wave function evidence of the soul of man interacting with the physical world? And why does there have to be a limitation on how God observes an event?
My pronouns are he, him, and his.
- EarthScienceguy
- Guru
- Posts: 2192
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:53 pm
- Has thanked: 33 times
- Been thanked: 43 times
- Contact:
Re: How is there reality without God?
Post #313[Replying to The Barbarian in post #0]
I do not have time right now to answer everything. But I will take time right now to address this. Chimpanzees have 3,231,170,666 base pairs. Humans have 3,096,649,726 base pairs. That would be a difference of 134,520,940. ( http://useast.ensembl.org/Homo_sapiens/Info/Annotation) Let's say that there were 40,000,000 mutations events that produced this change. The differences in humans do not matter because humans do not have these base pairs. So 0.5% would take 1.2E11 years.
As I showed you, that would depend on many different things. It's like asking how long it would take water to run down a mountain. But do you see why a 1% difference would require you to determine how long 0.5% change takes? This is important. Think about it.
I do not have time right now to answer everything. But I will take time right now to address this. Chimpanzees have 3,231,170,666 base pairs. Humans have 3,096,649,726 base pairs. That would be a difference of 134,520,940. ( http://useast.ensembl.org/Homo_sapiens/Info/Annotation) Let's say that there were 40,000,000 mutations events that produced this change. The differences in humans do not matter because humans do not have these base pairs. So 0.5% would take 1.2E11 years.
- JoeyKnothead
- Banned
- Posts: 20879
- Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
- Location: Here
- Has thanked: 4093 times
- Been thanked: 2572 times
Re: How is there reality without God?
Post #314Good luck trying to put truth to that claim.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:59 am God doesn't observe the universe in a way that he comes to know new things.
And this'n.He knows all things as one eternal act.
Snip remainder
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
-Punkinhead Martin
- The Barbarian
- Sage
- Posts: 876
- Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:40 pm
- Has thanked: 204 times
- Been thanked: 586 times
Re: How is there reality without God?
Post #315How many of them are part of functional genes or functional non-coding DNA? You do know that duplications are not generally open to natural selection,right?EarthScienceguy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:52 pm [Replying to The Barbarian in post #0]
As I showed you, that would depend on many different things. It's like asking how long it would take water to run down a mountain. But do you see why a 1% difference would require you to determine how long 0.5% change takes? This is important. Think about it.
I do not have time right now to answer everything. But I will take time right now to address this. Chimpanzees have 3,231,170,666 base pairs. Humans have 3,096,649,726 base pairs. That would be a difference of 134,520,940. ( http://useast.ensembl.org/Homo_sapiens/Info/Annotation)
As you see, from observed evolution and speciations, that assumption is contradicted by reality. It has been observed to happen much faster than you assumed.Let's say that there were 40,000,000 mutations events that produced this change. The differences in humans do not matter because humans do not have these base pairs. So 0.5% would take 1.2E11 years.
- The Barbarian
- Sage
- Posts: 876
- Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:40 pm
- Has thanked: 204 times
- Been thanked: 586 times
Re: How is there reality without God?
Post #316Or it could be that an omnipotent being could be everywhere, but not contained by anything.William wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:51 pm [Replying to The Barbarian in post #309]
The only way to escape the contradiction "Since an omnipotent Creator would be apart from His creation, and not contained by it," with "an omnipotent entity can be omnipresent" would be to agree that the Creator can do both, simultaneously.By definition, an omnipotent entity can be omnipresent, since it would not be omnipotent, otherwise.
Would you agree?
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14187
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 912 times
- Been thanked: 1644 times
- Contact:
Re: How is there reality without God?
Post #317If an omnipotent being cannot experience being contained, how can it be omnipotent?The Barbarian wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:05 pmOr it could be that an omnipotent being could be everywhere, but not contained by anything.William wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:51 pm [Replying to The Barbarian in post #309]
The only way to escape the contradiction "Since an omnipotent Creator would be apart from His creation, and not contained by it," with "an omnipotent entity can be omnipresent" would be to agree that the Creator can do both, simultaneously.By definition, an omnipotent entity can be omnipresent, since it would not be omnipotent, otherwise.
Would you agree?
Therefore, I argue that it can actually do both, simultaneously, rather than it can do the one thing, but not the other.
- The Barbarian
- Sage
- Posts: 876
- Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:40 pm
- Has thanked: 204 times
- Been thanked: 586 times
Re: How is there reality without God?
Post #318William wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:51 pm
Or it could be that an omnipotent being could be everywhere, but not contained by anything.
By choosing not to be contained. "Omniptotent" does not mean "do all things."If an omnipotent being cannot experience being contained, how can it be omnipotent?
Or none of those. If we can't even figure out quantum entanglement, how do we figure out omnipotence?Therefore, I argue that it can actually do both, simultaneously, rather than it can do the one thing, but not the other.
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14187
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 912 times
- Been thanked: 1644 times
- Contact:
Re: How is there reality without God?
Post #319[Replying to The Barbarian in post #318]
This is a great question/observation and a similar one I recently asked an AIChat :
Or it could be that an omnipotent being could be everywhere, but not contained by anything.
If an omnipotent being cannot experience being contained, how can it be omnipotent?
By choosing not to be contained. "Omniptotent" does not mean "do all things."
Therefore, I argue that it can actually do both, simultaneously, rather than it can do the one thing, but not the other.
Or none of those. If we can't even figure out quantum entanglement, how do we figure out omnipotence?
This is a great question/observation and a similar one I recently asked an AIChat :
William: If in your research you cannot come to any conclusion on this matter which could help us humans also come to a conclusion, there would be no point in wasting time trying to find a place where everyone could agree together on the matter, therefore the concept is beyond the limitation of both humans and intelligent language machines.
OAIC: It is true that the concept of an omni-being is a complex and abstract one that is difficult to fully understand or grasp, even for advanced AI such as myself. The attributes of an omni-being, such as omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience, are often used in religious or philosophical contexts and can have different interpretations and meanings for different individuals and groups. This can make it challenging to come to a shared understanding or agreement on the nature of an omni-being.
However, it's also important to note that the debate and discussion about the nature of an omni-being can be valuable and thought-provoking, regardless of whether a final understanding or agreement is reached. It can help individuals and groups to consider different perspectives and explore the limits of human understanding and the nature of reality.
It's also important to note that the limitation of human and AI understanding does not imply that the concept is not meaningful or that it should be dismissed. The concept of an omni-being is a central part of many religious and philosophical beliefs, and it can be a source of inspiration, guidance, or contemplation for many people.
In summary, the concept of an omni-being is a complex and abstract one that is difficult for humans and AI to fully understand or grasp, but the debate and discussion about it can be valuable and thought-provoking, and the limitation of human and AI understanding does not imply that the concept is not meaningful or should be dismissed.{SOURCE}
- EarthScienceguy
- Guru
- Posts: 2192
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:53 pm
- Has thanked: 33 times
- Been thanked: 43 times
- Contact:
Re: How is there reality without God?
Post #320[Replying to Difflugia in post #312]
It is not my argument it is Neils Bohr argument. He is the one who said that "A phenomenon is not a phenomenon until it is observed." or you can say measured if that makes you feel better."Observer" means something specific in physics. Your argument is that gods are somehow needed to be that specific thing in order for the universe to exist. Or at least I think that's your argument.