How is there reality without God?

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EarthScienceguy
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How is there reality without God?

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Post by EarthScienceguy »

Neils Bohr
"No Phenomenon is a phenomenon until it is an observed phenomenon." Or another way to say this is that a tree does not fall in a forest unless it is observed.

The only way for there to be an objective reality is if God is the constant observer everywhere.

Physicist John Archibald Wheeler: "It is wrong to think of the past as 'already existing' in all detail. The 'past' is theory. The past has no existence except as it is recorded in the present."

God is everywhere so He can observe everywhere and produce objective reality.

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Re: How is there reality without God?

Post #311

Post by William »

[Replying to The Barbarian in post #309]
By definition, an omnipotent entity can be omnipresent, since it would not be omnipotent, otherwise.
The only way to escape the contradiction "Since an omnipotent Creator would be apart from His creation, and not contained by it," with "an omnipotent entity can be omnipresent" would be to agree that the Creator can do both, simultaneously.

Would you agree?

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Re: How is there reality without God?

Post #312

Post by Difflugia »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:21 pmIf God did observe all quantum states then there would be no such thing as free will.
OK.
EarthScienceguy wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:21 pmWould the observation of a cat collapse the wave function or does it take a human with a soul to collapse the wave function? Is an observation that collapses the wave function evidence of the soul of man interacting with the physical world? And why does there have to be a limitation on how God observes an event?
"Observer" means something specific in physics. Your argument is that gods are somehow needed to be that specific thing in order for the universe to exist. Or at least I think that's your argument.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: How is there reality without God?

Post #313

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to The Barbarian in post #0]
As I showed you, that would depend on many different things. It's like asking how long it would take water to run down a mountain. But do you see why a 1% difference would require you to determine how long 0.5% change takes? This is important. Think about it.

I do not have time right now to answer everything. But I will take time right now to address this. Chimpanzees have 3,231,170,666 base pairs. Humans have 3,096,649,726 base pairs. That would be a difference of 134,520,940. ( http://useast.ensembl.org/Homo_sapiens/Info/Annotation) Let's say that there were 40,000,000 mutations events that produced this change. The differences in humans do not matter because humans do not have these base pairs. So 0.5% would take 1.2E11 years.

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Re: How is there reality without God?

Post #314

Post by JoeyKnothead »

AquinasForGod wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:59 am God doesn't observe the universe in a way that he comes to know new things.
Good luck trying to put truth to that claim.
He knows all things as one eternal act.
And this'n.


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Re: How is there reality without God?

Post #315

Post by The Barbarian »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:52 pm [Replying to The Barbarian in post #0]
As I showed you, that would depend on many different things. It's like asking how long it would take water to run down a mountain. But do you see why a 1% difference would require you to determine how long 0.5% change takes? This is important. Think about it.

I do not have time right now to answer everything. But I will take time right now to address this. Chimpanzees have 3,231,170,666 base pairs. Humans have 3,096,649,726 base pairs. That would be a difference of 134,520,940. ( http://useast.ensembl.org/Homo_sapiens/Info/Annotation)
How many of them are part of functional genes or functional non-coding DNA? You do know that duplications are not generally open to natural selection,right?
Let's say that there were 40,000,000 mutations events that produced this change. The differences in humans do not matter because humans do not have these base pairs. So 0.5% would take 1.2E11 years.
As you see, from observed evolution and speciations, that assumption is contradicted by reality. It has been observed to happen much faster than you assumed.

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Re: How is there reality without God?

Post #316

Post by The Barbarian »

William wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:51 pm [Replying to The Barbarian in post #309]
By definition, an omnipotent entity can be omnipresent, since it would not be omnipotent, otherwise.
The only way to escape the contradiction "Since an omnipotent Creator would be apart from His creation, and not contained by it," with "an omnipotent entity can be omnipresent" would be to agree that the Creator can do both, simultaneously.

Would you agree?
Or it could be that an omnipotent being could be everywhere, but not contained by anything.

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Re: How is there reality without God?

Post #317

Post by William »

The Barbarian wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:05 pm
William wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:51 pm [Replying to The Barbarian in post #309]
By definition, an omnipotent entity can be omnipresent, since it would not be omnipotent, otherwise.
The only way to escape the contradiction "Since an omnipotent Creator would be apart from His creation, and not contained by it," with "an omnipotent entity can be omnipresent" would be to agree that the Creator can do both, simultaneously.

Would you agree?
Or it could be that an omnipotent being could be everywhere, but not contained by anything.
If an omnipotent being cannot experience being contained, how can it be omnipotent?
Therefore, I argue that it can actually do both, simultaneously, rather than it can do the one thing, but not the other.

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Re: How is there reality without God?

Post #318

Post by The Barbarian »

William wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:51 pm
Or it could be that an omnipotent being could be everywhere, but not contained by anything.
If an omnipotent being cannot experience being contained, how can it be omnipotent?
By choosing not to be contained. "Omniptotent" does not mean "do all things."
Therefore, I argue that it can actually do both, simultaneously, rather than it can do the one thing, but not the other.
Or none of those. If we can't even figure out quantum entanglement, how do we figure out omnipotence?

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Re: How is there reality without God?

Post #319

Post by William »

[Replying to The Barbarian in post #318]

Or it could be that an omnipotent being could be everywhere, but not contained by anything.
If an omnipotent being cannot experience being contained, how can it be omnipotent?
By choosing not to be contained. "Omniptotent" does not mean "do all things."
Therefore, I argue that it can actually do both, simultaneously, rather than it can do the one thing, but not the other.
Or none of those. If we can't even figure out quantum entanglement, how do we figure out omnipotence?

This is a great question/observation and a similar one I recently asked an AIChat :
William: If in your research you cannot come to any conclusion on this matter which could help us humans also come to a conclusion, there would be no point in wasting time trying to find a place where everyone could agree together on the matter, therefore the concept is beyond the limitation of both humans and intelligent language machines.

OAIC: It is true that the concept of an omni-being is a complex and abstract one that is difficult to fully understand or grasp, even for advanced AI such as myself. The attributes of an omni-being, such as omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience, are often used in religious or philosophical contexts and can have different interpretations and meanings for different individuals and groups. This can make it challenging to come to a shared understanding or agreement on the nature of an omni-being.

However, it's also important to note that the debate and discussion about the nature of an omni-being can be valuable and thought-provoking, regardless of whether a final understanding or agreement is reached. It can help individuals and groups to consider different perspectives and explore the limits of human understanding and the nature of reality.

It's also important to note that the limitation of human and AI understanding does not imply that the concept is not meaningful or that it should be dismissed. The concept of an omni-being is a central part of many religious and philosophical beliefs, and it can be a source of inspiration, guidance, or contemplation for many people.

In summary, the concept of an omni-being is a complex and abstract one that is difficult for humans and AI to fully understand or grasp, but the debate and discussion about it can be valuable and thought-provoking, and the limitation of human and AI understanding does not imply that the concept is not meaningful or should be dismissed.{SOURCE}

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Re: How is there reality without God?

Post #320

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to Difflugia in post #312]
"Observer" means something specific in physics. Your argument is that gods are somehow needed to be that specific thing in order for the universe to exist. Or at least I think that's your argument.
It is not my argument it is Neils Bohr argument. He is the one who said that "A phenomenon is not a phenomenon until it is observed." or you can say measured if that makes you feel better.

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