Holy Spirit?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Ross
Scholar
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:09 am
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 48 times

Holy Spirit?

Post #1

Post by Ross »

Hello, I am new to this forum and not a member of any church, or a churchgoer. I haven't been on a Bible discussion forum for many years.
I was recently asked to go on an 'Alpha course' to which I replied that I did not think there was any need for me to go on a Bible 'course' as there were no 'courses' in the time of the Apostles. This however caused me to investigate this further which revealed it is an introduction into the 'gifts' of evangelism which seems to be infiltrating most churches in recent years.
Then I watched YouTube videos which were quite shocking to me of people lying shaking on the ground in the isles of charismatic meetings as though in epileptic fits, others fainting with eyes rolling in their heads, wailing and crying, others in their 70's running on the spot and waving their arms out of control like stupid adolescents on drugs, and 'ministers' talking unintelligible Arabic sounding nonsense that they claimed was 'speaking in tongues.'
All in the name of 'Holy Spirit.' This is enough to keep me away from church with a barge pole.
Your comments would be greatly appreciated.
Is this The Holy Spirit?
Last edited by Ross on Sun Jan 15, 2023 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ross
Scholar
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:09 am
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 48 times

Re: Holy Spirit?

Post #51

Post by Ross »

The Tanager wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:53 am I don’t agree (if you meant the following) that God isn’t on the move in the various movements and many of the denominations throughout history.
I believe that God was on the move through individuals all through history because of:
Mat 20:28:
"Behold I am with you all the days even to the end of the world"
But not that Catholicism, Protestantism, Unitarianism, and others or any branches thereof can claim God given ordination.
The Tanager wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:53 am I am constantly around countless Christians who feel the same. I’ve recently begun searching for a new local body, visiting many churches, and I see so many flawed Christians on the right track, seeking God above denominations, God above their own man-made thinking and dreams, etc.
I live in England, and whenever I work in churches or meet people who are Christian, even evangelicals, they almost panic at the innocent suggestion of a discussion of their faith or the Bible.
The Tanager wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:53 am I’d say our Body needs people who think like you. The church is messy, but if beauty is going to come, it has to come out of messes because humans are messy. Blessings on your path, wherever it takes you.
Thank you so much for those kind words.

Don't you think that a forum such as this can replace going to a church?

User avatar
AquinasForGod
Sage
Posts: 972
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:29 am
Location: USA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 71 times

Re: Holy Spirit?

Post #52

Post by AquinasForGod »

Ross wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:42 am Hello, I am new to this forum and not a member of any church, or a churchgoer. I haven't been on a Bible discussion forum for many years.
I was recently asked to go on an 'Alpha course' to which I replied that I did not think there was any need for me to go on a Bible 'course' as there were no 'courses' in the time of the Apostles. This however caused me to investigate this further which revealed it is an introduction into the 'gifts' of evangelism which seems to be infiltrating most churches in recent years.
Then I watched YouTube videos which were quite shocking to me of people lying shaking on the ground in the isles of charismatic meetings as though in epileptic fits, others fainting with eyes rolling in their heads, wailing and crying, others in their 70's running on the spot and waving their arms out of control like stupid adolescents on drugs, and 'ministers' talking unintelligible Arabic sounding nonsense that they claimed was 'speaking in tongues.'
All in the name of 'Holy Spirit.' This is enough to keep me away from church with a barge pole.
Your comments would be greatly appreciated.
Is this The Holy Spirit?
Watch some footage of the Beatles concerts. You will see similar behavior. Also, you will see similar behavior in voodoo gatherings.

User avatar
The Tanager
Prodigy
Posts: 4977
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Holy Spirit?

Post #53

Post by The Tanager »

Ross wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:23 pmI believe that God was on the move through individuals all through history because of:
Mat 20:28:
"Behold I am with you all the days even to the end of the world"
But not that Catholicism, Protestantism, Unitarianism, and others or any branches thereof can claim God given ordination.
But these weren’t just individuals; they were communities of individuals in most cases. I also don’t like Christianity’s division into denominations, for we give up the unity we are called to as one body in Christ. But groups within various denominations have and are continuing to blur the lines back into Christian unity.
Ross wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:23 pmI live in England, and whenever I work in churches or meet people who are Christian, even evangelicals, they almost panic at the innocent suggestion of a discussion of their faith or the Bible.
Keep looking. They are out there. Have you listened to the Unbelievable podcast, based out of the UK. It’s with Justin Brierley through Premier Christian Radio. That show is all about the opposite of panic at such discussions.
Ross wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:23 pmThank you so much for those kind words.

Don't you think that a forum such as this can replace going to a church?
I don’t. I think it's a great piece of the puzzle, but I believe we are called to work towards the full restoration of the world to God’s design. This includes thought, but must move into being the hands and feet, God blessing the world and restoring it through His Body. I believe we are called to serve the needs of those around us, as well as to let others serve us in our needs, and this can’t fully happen on forums.

Ross
Scholar
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:09 am
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 48 times

Re: Holy Spirit?

Post #54

Post by Ross »

The Tanager wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:47 pm
Ross wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:23 pmI believe that God was on the move through individuals all through history because of:
Mat 20:28:
"Behold I am with you all the days even to the end of the world"
But not that Catholicism, Protestantism, Unitarianism, and others or any branches thereof can claim God given ordination.
But these weren’t just individuals; they were communities of individuals in most cases. I also don’t like Christianity’s division into denominations, for we give up the unity we are called to as one body in Christ. But groups within various denominations have and are continuing to blur the lines back into Christian unity.

I believe we are called to work towards the full restoration of the world to God’s design. This includes thought, but must move into being the hands and feet, God blessing the world and restoring it through His Body.
Your words would indicate all churches ( all of Christianity) is the ordained church or body of Christ or contains it. Please correct me if I understand you incorrectly.

So do you include Protestantism, Catholicism and Unitarianism, Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, or are some excluded because of Heretical beliefs?

My own view is based on the Parable of Wheat and Weeds:

“The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. The owner’s servants came to him and said, “Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?”
“An enemy did this,” he replied.
The servants asked him, “Do you want us to go and pull them up?”
“No,” he answered, “because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn” (Matthew 13:24-30).

Thus the Apostacy was the sowing of weeds among the wheat, and both would grow together until the Son of Man returns.
However you seem to indicate a man made restoration, or one within Christianity before the Second Advent.
This parable is why I do not recognise any claims for God ordained revivalism, be it Protestantism, reformation or otherwise in past or present.

Ross
Scholar
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:09 am
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 48 times

Re: Holy Spirit?

Post #55

Post by Ross »

AquinasForGod wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:12 pm
Ross wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:42 am Hello, I am new to this forum and not a member of any church, or a churchgoer. I haven't been on a Bible discussion forum for many years.
I was recently asked to go on an 'Alpha course' to which I replied that I did not think there was any need for me to go on a Bible 'course' as there were no 'courses' in the time of the Apostles. This however caused me to investigate this further which revealed it is an introduction into the 'gifts' of evangelism which seems to be infiltrating most churches in recent years.
Then I watched YouTube videos which were quite shocking to me of people lying shaking on the ground in the isles of charismatic meetings as though in epileptic fits, others fainting with eyes rolling in their heads, wailing and crying, others in their 70's running on the spot and waving their arms out of control like stupid adolescents on drugs, and 'ministers' talking unintelligible Arabic sounding nonsense that they claimed was 'speaking in tongues.'
All in the name of 'Holy Spirit.' This is enough to keep me away from church with a barge pole.
Your comments would be greatly appreciated.
Is this The Holy Spirit?
Watch some footage of the Beatles concerts. You will see similar behavior. Also, you will see similar behavior in voodoo gatherings.
The mass hysteria towards The Beatles was primarily among young teenage girls star struck, and with a 'crush' toward one or more of the band members, rather than grown, educated and responsible adults.
If there is activity in 'Christian' movements that is reminiscent of evil spirit inspired voodoo gatherings, all the more reason for me to stay away with a barge pole.

User avatar
The Tanager
Prodigy
Posts: 4977
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Holy Spirit?

Post #56

Post by The Tanager »

[Replying to Ross in post #54]

I do not think every church or denomination is necessarily a part of the body of Christ. Neither do I think that being a part of the body of Christ is equal to being a member of a church or denomination. I do believe that unitarianism, mormonism, and Jehovah’s Witnesses are different religions than what is usually called orthodox Christianity and that they should be treated as such, out of respect for all parties.

Ross
Scholar
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:09 am
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 48 times

Re: Holy Spirit?

Post #57

Post by Ross »

The Tanager wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:02 am [Replying to Ross in post #54]

I do not think every church or denomination is necessarily a part of the body of Christ. Neither do I think that being a part of the body of Christ is equal to being a member of a church or denomination. I do believe that unitarianism, mormonism, and Jehovah’s Witnesses are different religions than what is usually called orthodox Christianity and that they should be treated as such, out of respect for all parties.
And what about Catholicism?

User avatar
The Tanager
Prodigy
Posts: 4977
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Holy Spirit?

Post #58

Post by The Tanager »

Ross wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:55 amAnd what about Catholicism?
I believe there are Catholics who are part of the body of Christ and those who aren't. I think the same of Protestants. I have disagreements with Catholics on some things and various Protestants in areas as well, although I'm more Protestant than Catholic in my beliefs. We don't belong to Christ because we believe all/most of the right things, we belong to Christ if we trust in Him and what He's doing for us, in us, and through us.

Ross
Scholar
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:09 am
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 48 times

Re: Holy Spirit?

Post #59

Post by Ross »

The Tanager wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:05 am
Ross wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:55 amAnd what about Catholicism?
I believe there are Catholics who are part of the body of Christ and those who aren't. I think the same of Protestants. I have disagreements with Catholics on some things and various Protestants in areas as well, although I'm more Protestant than Catholic in my beliefs. We don't belong to Christ because we believe all/most of the right things, we belong to Christ if we trust in Him and what He's doing for us, in us, and through us.
Are any Jehovah's Witnesses or Unitarians or Modalists included in the body of Christ in your opinion? I'm not in any way attempting to catch you out or asking loaded questions. I'm just interested.

User avatar
The Tanager
Prodigy
Posts: 4977
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Holy Spirit?

Post #60

Post by The Tanager »

Ross wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:16 amAre any Jehovah's Witnesses or Unitarians or Modalists included in the body of Christ in your opinion? I'm not in any way attempting to catch you out or asking loaded questions. I'm just interested.
I believe those in other religions can become part of God's kingdom (through Jesus by trusting in God rather than themselves and their own knowledge or religion) without knowing who Jesus is. I don't believe it's about getting all the doctrines right. It seems harder to get to this point in these groups, however, (The Church of Latter Day Saints, as well) because I think they teach a different thing about salvation than the gospel of Christ and saying this is Jesus, causing confusion of the key truth...but I wouldn't presume to rule everyone out in these traditions.

Post Reply