The Jew Problem

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Conversator
Student
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:55 pm
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 14 times

The Jew Problem

Post #1

Post by Conversator »

It fascinates me how Christians and Muslims want the religion of the Jews, but without the Jews. They'll write ten thousand books to explain why the Jew is damned, whilst they, the holy exemplars of the Jew's God, are blessed. I simply can't ignore this, as some courtesy to etiquette. Let's actually discuss this. 1st Thessalonians 2:15,16 " ...The Jews killed the lord Jesus and the prophets... they do not please God, and are hostile to ALL men... wrath is upon them to the utmost." Galatians 5:12 " I wish they ( the Jews) would castrate themselves." Surah 5:64 " the Jews...are cursed... they love to make mischief in the Earth." I find it curious. Shouldn't God be the focus of religion? If God's enemy is the focus of religion, should it even be called a religion? ( In fairness, my dear Muslim brothers and sisters have disavowed much of the hateful rhetoric in their Hadiths. And have been a force of good in this world, and will no doubt have a cherished place in the glorious world to come) I've often joked with my Muslim brothers that the only reason their book says bad stuff about us and our book says nothing bad about Muslims, is because they came after us. If they came first, our book would say bad stuff about them, but their book would have nothing bad about us. They know that and we do too :P
Last edited by Conversator on Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
I prefer Coca-Cola

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: The Jew Problem

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:09 am Curious as to what this record is and where it resides...

.
I was refering to the bible record.
otseng wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:20 amIn this subforum the canon of the Bible is considered authoritative with respect to the historical consensus of the canon's content. Therefore, the 66 books contained within all canons are considered more authoritative than deuterocanonical books.



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: The Jew Problem

Post #12

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Conversator wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:02 am It fascinates me how Christians and Muslims want the religion of the Jews, but without the Jews.


Since Christ and the apostles and all the earliest disciples would have been Jewish (and some, Samaritan), that would be pretty hard to do, wouldn't it?

I am not Jewish (nor descended from physical Israel as far as I know), and the law covenant that was instituted between God and Israel (through Moses) was for Israel. I was not a part of that. I am part of the new covenant (mediated by Christ, who said to worship in spirit and in truth, rather than at the Temple in Jerusalem, or on the mountain that the Samaritans worshiped, etc, etc.)

But I would be overjoyed at any person of Israel (Jewish or otherwise) also coming to Christ, loving Him, belonging to Him. For sure there are at least 24 000 places in the Kingdom (to reign with Christ for at least a thousand years) that are reserved for Jews (12 000 descended from Judah, 12 000 descended from Benjamin). Then there are 12 000 places reserved for descendants of ten other tribes of Israel.

These places are reserved for literal fleshly Israel (12 000 from each of 12 tribes; Joseph getting a double portion and one tribe losing out on their portion). More than these can come to Christ and be part of His Bride and reign with Him in His Kingdom of course (the great crowd is not numbered and is made up of people from every tribe, nation, tongue), but 144 000 places are reserved specifically for Israel.

On top of that, Paul is the very person who said that all Israel will be saved. That they are loved on account of the Patriarchs. I am glad for this as well.

 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 
And this is[f] my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”[g]

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.


I am especially glad for mercy being shown to anyone (Jew or otherwise), because I know that I need and want mercy to be shown to me as well.

They'll write ten thousand books to explain why the Jew is damned,
"They" write a lot of things, about a lot of different kinds of people who 'they' claim (usually in ignorance) are damned.

But all Israel will be saved. Not necessarily reigning in the Kingdom (as they would have had they accepted Christ), but still loved on account of the patriarchs, still saved, and at some point saying (referring to Christ) "Blessed is He who comes in the name of [the Lord]."


whilst they, the holy exemplars of the Jew's God, are blessed.


Is He just the God of the Jews though? He is the Most Holy One of Israel (more than just Jews even there) - and His covenant was with them - but He started out as the God of all mankind, did He not? The new covenant that Christ mediated opened up to more than just Israel - to Gentiles as well. He is not just the God of one people but people of all nations, tribes, tongues and peoples.
I simply can't ignore this, as some courtesy to etiquette. Let's actually discuss this.
Sure that makes sense. If you feel there is a wrong, no need to ignore that wrong.
1st Thessalonians 2:15,16 " ...The Jews killed the lord Jesus and the prophets... they do not please God, and are hostile to ALL men... wrath is upon them to the utmost."
Paul cannot be speaking about all Jews. Please note also that Paul is the one who said all Israel will be saved (that obviously includes Jews). Paul was a Jew. Even if you reject that, the apostles were Jews. The earliest disciples were Jews. Christ was a Jew.
Galatians 5:12 " I wish they ( the Jews) would castrate themselves."


"They" as in... those who were teaching that gentiles needed to be circumcised. That was not all Jews; that was a particular group among the Jewish disciples who were teaching that gentiles had to be circumcised.

Surah 5:64 " the Jews...are cursed... they love to make mischief in the Earth."


I'm not Muslim, so for the most part I will leave these for a Muslim to come and speak about, but I can suggest to you that this cannot be referring to all Jews either, because just a few verses later the Quran says:

Indeed, the believers, Jews, Sabians1 and Christians—whoever ˹truly˺ believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, there will be no fear for them, nor will they grieve.

And though it probably depends upon the translation, this is how that same site translates 5:64:

˹Some among˺ the Jews said, “Allah is tight-fisted.”1 May their fists be tied and they be condemned for what they said. Rather, He is open-handed, giving freely as He pleases.
These kindred religions share the same spirit: a rage against Jews.
I am not going to deny that there are people like that or that there are denominations and religious teachers like that in both religions. But that did not come from Christ, or even from Paul. Many times what people do or claim in the name of their religion has nothing to do with what is said by God or His Son or even what is written in their chosen holy book.
I find it curious. Shouldn't God be the focus of religion?
Or of faith, yes I would agree with you.

Please note that Paul is writing about things that were occurring in his day, to people in his day. In the one place he is trying to keep the people from becoming conceited by thinking they are better than Jews. In other places he is arguing against other Jews teaching that gentiles should be circumcised. Saying that Jews (in particular the Jewish leaders) handed Christ over to be crucified is part of the account though.
If God's enemy is the focus of religion, should it even be called a religion?
Christ did not come and start a new religion, so this is a moot point for me. He said that the Father desires those who worship Him in spirit and in truth. The religion that God instituted with Israel (mediated by Moses) with the Temple/priesthood/law is the only religion that God sanctioned, and that was just until Christ came, and then the people were to listen to Christ, obey His commands.

The physical Temple was a physical example of the spiritual reality. So (for example) the Most Holy Place represented the Most Holy One. The Holy Place represented the Holy One (Christ). To enter into the Most Holy, one had to first pass through the Holy (unless one attempted to break in as a thief). Just as one must pass through Christ in order to come to the Father (John 14:6).




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

2ndpillar2
Sage
Posts: 841
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 am
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: The Jew Problem

Post #13

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:04 am
Conversator wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:41 pm I believe Paul, the Pharisee imposter, was arrested in Jerusalem for trespassing the Temple
WAS PAUL A JEWISH IMPOSTER?

That Paul was arrested in the Jewish temple is a matter of record, but that he merely pretended to be Jewish is an entirely outlandish idea.

Paul had claimed to have been a Jew, a Pharisee and a student of Gamaliel. These things would have been easy to prove false: Paul was not after all making these claims in some far off land to people that had no living memory of events, he was standing at the center of Jewish religious and academic learning and making these claims to his former associates. If anyone thinks there would not have been an avalanche religious leaders to expose him as a liar, there may be a bridge in Brooklyn with their name on it! Like Jesus, Pauls preaching and teaching was truly prolific, had he been a mere Jewish wannabe, we should have (or at least have reference) to first century writings of such exposing.

JW

PAUL, THE MOSIAC LAW and ...THE WRITING OF THE APOSTLE PAUL
[/quote]

Paul proclaimed himself an "apostle" to the Gentiles, and supposedly personally recorded his intercourse with "the supposed pillars" per his Galatian 2 discourse. According to his assumed associate Luke, the often-presumed self-proclaimed scribe of the events of Acts, he stated that when Paul went to Jerusalem, he was chased out by the Jews, and was saved by the protection of Roman cohorts, or in other words, under the protection of his Lord Caesar, the "beast" as noted in Revelation 13 & 17, whose authority came by way of the "dragon"/devil. As for what he was supposedly supposed to preach, was to not eat blood, or sacrifice to idols, or fornicate. I think his message got lost among the weeds/tares. His followers apparently eat and drink the actual body and blood of Christ, and Paul taught that there were no actual idols, and if you had his faith, you could eat any meat sacrificed to the non-existing gods. As for his Gentile church, fornication seems to be fine, with the current pope saying fornication among men is not unlawful, which is apparently the message of many Protestants as well, which seems apparently a sign of the times, or the "end times", when the sky will fall (Revelation 16:21) following Har-Magedon (Revelation 16:16). As for JWs, who think they have been marked for their own protection against the "locust" (Revelation 7:3), well, they have been marked, but not with the mark, "seal of God" (Revelation 13:16), for the "seal of God" with respect to Israel, was that they kept the Sabbath. (Ezekiel 20:12)

The Lord said, “I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them” (Ezekiel 20:12)

User avatar
Conversator
Student
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:55 pm
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 14 times

Re: The Jew Problem

Post #14

Post by Conversator »

Miles wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:09 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:04 am
Conversator wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:41 pm I believe Paul, the Pharisee imposter, was arrested in Jerusalem for trespassing the Temple
WAS PAUL A JEWISH IMPOSTER?

That Paul was arrested in the Jewish temple is a matter of record, but that he merely pretended to be Jewish is an entirely outlandish and ludicius idea.

Paul had claimed to have been a Jew, a Pharisee and a student of Gamaliel. These things would have been easy to prove false: Paul was not after all making these claims in some far off land to people that had no living memory of events, he was standing at the center of Jewish religious and academic learning and making these claims to his former associates. If anyone thinks there would not have been an avalanche religious leaders to expose him as a liar, there may be a bridge in Brooklyn with their name on it! Like Jesus, Pauls preaching an and teaching was truly prolific, had he been a mere Jewish wannabe, we should have (or at least have reference) to first century writings of such exposing.

Those that suggest such outlandish ideas are perhaps never asked for actual evidence to support them, in this forum they get no such free rides.
Curious as to what this record is and where it resides, other than as a Bible story of course.

.
New Testament scholars date Acts to the mid 2nd century CE, some the late 1st century. Thus the veracity of its details are open to scrutiny. Paul's consistent spurious quotations of the Old Testament, have long perplexed scholars. Loose paraphrases of the septuagint in some places, completely foreign quotations in others. A pharisee trained by the famed rabbi Gamaliel, would surely be able to competently quote the Hebrew Masoretic text into Koine Greek better than that! One example: Romans 11:26 " the Redeemer will come to Zion and will remove ungodliness..." Isaiah actually says, " the redeemer will come to Zion if they turn away from transgressions...", Isaiah 59:20. Isaiah is about repentance " if they turn away", Paul twists it to mean Jesus will remove ungodliness. Isaiah's is conditional, Paul's is unconditional.
Check Paul yourself. When ever he quotes the Old Testament, check it. You'll be horrified. New Testament scholars generally pardon Paul's ineptitude, by claiming he was a hellenestic Jew unfamiliar with the Hebrew Old Testament. Neither the Pharisees, nor especially Gamaliel would have accepted or even associated with a hellenistic Jew. Paul may have been a hellenistic Jew, but he certainly wasn't a Pharisee. The Pharisees could have cared less what non-Jews believe, but they would have cared a great deal about a hellenistic Jew claiming to be one of them! The Pharisees didn't want guilt by association, with a make-believe Pharisee stirring up trouble with gentiles for crying out loud. The Jews had enough misery with Rome as it was! The nonsense about Jews persecuting Gentile Christians is ridiculous. We don't care what others believe, just leave us out of it.
I find it peculiar that Paul constantly defended ( through the guise of boasting) his Jewish ancestry to Gentiles, such as: " i was circumcised the eighth day, I am of the nation of Israel, I am a Hebrew of Hebrews, and a Pharisee" ( Philippians 3:5, and several other places). Nobody talks like that in Judaism, not now, and not in any of our sacred literature, Talmudic, etc. I am a "Hebrew of Hebrews" etc LOL.
I prefer Coca-Cola

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: The Jew Problem

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Conversator wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:25 pm

New Testament scholars date Acts to the mid 2nd century CE, some the late 1st century. ...
Indeed and glaring in its absence is documented evidence that Paul's claims to his Jewish heritiage were ever exposed as false. One may not like his writings but feelings do not a manuscript make.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: The Jew Problem

Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Conversator wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:25 pm A pharisee trained by the famed rabbi Gamaliel, would surely be able to competently quote the Hebrew Masoretic text into Koine Greek better than that!
DOES PAUL MISQUOTE SCRIPTURE?

Some claim Paul must have been lying about his religious educaton because his scriptural references did not according to them, exactly match the Hebrew Masoretic text. This is a particularly flimsy argument not least because Paul was likely not refering to the Hebrew Masoretic text. Writing in Greek to a predominently non Jewish audience Paul likely would have used a version of the Greek Septuagint.

Further he was not writing to Pharsaic Jews who would perhaaps have taken exception to any paraphrasing, he was for the most part writing to people unfamiliar with the Hebrew text, people to for whom paraphrasing would arguably be the best approach. Paul was not attempting to reproduce a copy of the Hebrew bible, he was explaining its meaning to his readers. As such it is logical he highlight or mention the parts of the verses he wished to emphasis and organise words in a way that emphasised his intent (see example below ) . Jesus did similar, particialy quoting scriptures and giving them an unconventional "spin" .
CONCLUSION The accusation that Paul misquoted scripture because his references do not exactly match Hebrew Masoretic is insignificant to say the least as it is based on the unproven premise that exactitude was a primary concern.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:50 am, edited 6 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: The Jew Problem

Post #17

Post by JehovahsWitness »

ISAIAH 59: 20, 21a
“To Zion the Repurchaser will come, To those in Jacob who turn from transgression,”+ declares Jehovah.21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,”.”

ISAIAH 27:9
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)
9 So in this way the error of Jacob will be atoned for,


ROMANS 11:26, 27
Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27 this is my covenant with them,+ when I take their sins away.”
Conversator wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:25 pm Check Paul yourself. When ever he quotes the Old Testament, check it. You'll be horrified



The above example is FAR from horrifying, it's actually a well ordered paraphase of not one but two original passages, skillfully woven together.








JEHOVAHS WITNESS


For further details please go to other posts related to ...

PAUL, THE MOSIAC LAW and ...THE WRITING OF THE APOSTLE PAUL
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: The Jew Problem

Post #18

Post by 1213 »

Conversator wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:02 am It fascinates me how Christians and Muslims want the religion of the Jews, but without the Jews. They'll write ten thousand books to explain why the Jew is damned, whilst they, the holy exemplars of the Jew's God, are blessed. I simply can't ignore this, as some courtesy to etiquette. Let's actually discuss this. 1st Thessalonians 2:15,16 " ...The Jews killed the lord Jesus and the prophets... they do not please God, and are hostile to ALL men... wrath is upon them to the utmost." Galatians 5:12 " I wish they ( the Jews) would castrate themselves." Surah 5:64 " the Jews...are cursed... they love to make mischief in the Earth." I find it curious. Shouldn't God be the focus of religion? If God's enemy is the focus of religion, should it even be called a religion? ....
Two lines from the Bible, interpreted as hate for all Jews is not in my opinion enough reason to think Christianity is focused on "God's enemy". And I don't think it can be said Jews generally are God's enemy. Only those that are evil, do bad things, like murder, lie and steal, can be seen as enemy of God.

User avatar
SacredBishop
Apprentice
Posts: 146
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:55 pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: The Jew Problem

Post #19

Post by SacredBishop »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:21 am
ISAIAH 59: 20, 21a
“To Zion the Repurchaser will come, To those in Jacob who turn from transgression,”+ declares Jehovah.21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,”.”

ISAIAH 27:9
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)
9 So in this way the error of Jacob will be atoned for,


ROMANS 11:26, 27
Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27 this is my covenant with them,+ when I take their sins away.”
Conversator wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:25 pm Check Paul yourself. When ever he quotes the Old Testament, check it. You'll be horrified



The above example is FAR from horrifying, it's actually a well ordered paraphase of not one but two original passages, skillfully woven together.








JEHOVAHS WITNESS


For further details please go to other posts related to ...

PAUL, THE MOSIAC LAW and ...THE WRITING OF THE APOSTLE PAUL
Paul was blinded by heaven's glory for 3 days Acts 9:9, then he was stoned severely in the head and spine at Lystra Acts 14:19. Paul would have suffered memory loss and forgotten Hebrew language. Also Hebrew doesn't matter anymore, Paul considered Jewish things as garbage Philippians 3:8, and rightly so. Jews are the synagogue of Satan, and they tell lies Revelation 3:9. Also Hebrew was obviously replaced by tongues Acts 2:1-11, none of which is Hebrew language. Amos 2:15 He who grasps the bow ( the jew) will not stand his ground. The bow was taking from jew and given to the Church in Revelation 6:2 a white horse and he who sat on it was given a bow. The bow of Glory! The bow of Jesus! Aimed at the hearts of sinners! Amen above every amen! Also Jesus destroyed the temple of Jew. Now we have holy spirit as temple. Hallelujah, We are all blessed by the transfer of Jeremiah 31:17-40. The new covenant where sins are no more. Amen above every amen!

Revelations won
Sage
Posts: 830
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:13 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: The Jew Problem

Post #20

Post by Revelations won »

To all respondents,

Yes God will save all twelve tribes of the house of Israel meaning those who repent and serve the Lord. This also applies to ALL others who accept and obey all of God's commandments.

I find no scripture which allows mortal man the right to damn and condemn any race. Last time I checked, God requires all men to forgive others. God alone has the right to forgive those whom he choses.

Further I find no scriptural reference which denies salvation to any particular tribe or race.

We are, according to the Bible all the spirit children of God. Since God is indeed the literal father of our spirits, then it would make clear sense that he would desire all of his children to become like him and receive salvation and exaltation.

People say a Bible , a Bible, we have got a Bible! Are those who condemn the Jews extremely guilty of a serious sin of ingratitude? Would any of you have a Bible today without the faithful work of those covenant people who have written and preserved those sacred records for thousands of years and I am speaking of the tribe of Judah? What thanks do these modern day hippocrites honor and give thanks to those faithful Jews who sacrificed so very much to preserve those sacred OT and NT records which we assembled together for our Bibles of today???

Shame, Shame, Shame on all those ungrateful wretches who today damn and condemn all the good faithful Jews of today!!! For without those diligent and faithful records saved by the Jews, none of you would have a Bible today!

Let us face reality folks! Is there any man or woman who has ever been denied the opportunity to receive ALL that God has ever promised because of the Jews?? I give a resounding No!!!!

So where is your so called "Jew" problem??? As I see it, it is only a product of your own satanic bigotry and blind ignorance!

I stand ready to challenge anyone who can show otherwise....

Kind regards,
RW

Post Reply