Dinosaur tracks in the Paluxy riverbed.

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Tcg
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Dinosaur tracks in the Paluxy riverbed.

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Post by Tcg »

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The Paluxy River in Glen Rose, Texas has dried to the point of revealing dinosaur tracks, again. This time apparently to the point that previously undiscovered tracks have been found. This caught my attention because in the 1930s, some creationists claimed that human tracks were found there in the same rock level as dinosaur tracks. It was later determined that they weren't human tracks and there was some evidence that the tracks may have been modified to more closely resemble human tracks.

This article provides some of the issues:
Paluxy Man -- The Creationist Piltdown

Creationists, by citing examples of fossils that are supposed to be in the wrong order for evolution, often try to prove that the geological time scale is in error. In particular, they claim that human footprints have been found in rocks containing traces of dinosaurs and other animals that died out millions of years before humans actually appeared on the earth. As we shall see, however, these alleged footprints are either natural objects that have nothing to do with humans or are deliberate frauds. On the whole, the leading creationist authors are intelligent and sincere, but it seems that they have a very strong will to believe when it comes to defending their model.

https://ncse.ngo/paluxy-man-creationist-piltdown
The Piltdown Man is often presented as a reason to mistrust science, but are there any scientists today who don't accept that it was a fraud?

Are there any creationists today who still accept the human footprint claim and if so, what does that say about science's ability to correct and reject false claims compared to the creationist approach?


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Re: Dinosaur tracks in the Paluxy riverbed.

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Post by Miles »

brunumb wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:54 pm
AquinasForGod wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:14 pm But also, we need to consider the following. Scripture being given by God doesn't mean God wrote it or that it is perfect. Also, different books given by God serve different purposes. Kings doesn't serve the same purpose as Genesis.
All good reason to take anything written in the Bible with a grain of salt.
How else should a person take a book that's filled with half-truths, contradictions, gross exaggerations, fantasies, misleading declarations, silly assertions, scientific bloopers, a preoccupation with sex, and demands for worship from a jealous and fallible god, who may or may not consist of three parts---the jury is still out. A book so chaotic and rife with equivocation that it has spawned 45,000+ denominations around the world, all of which are essentially in competition with one another. Considering its author, The BIG Guy, he really blew it. Too bad he wasn't omniscient so he. . . he . . . . . . . . . . Ohh! You say he is. Urp. Sorry.

I'll see that grain of salt and raise you a truck load.

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Re: Dinosaur tracks in the Paluxy riverbed.

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Miles wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:57 pm And I won't even bother to ask how All scripture can be given by God, but not every word in the bible is.
If someone gets an order from his boss, and writes a memo to his employees, the order is given by the boss, but not every word in the memo is, even if the order is precisely conveyed in the memo.

You've just collided with the difference between "infallible" and "inerrant." Most Christians recognize the difference, but as usual, many disagree on where the border is:
https://www.ministrymatters.com/all/ent ... difference

“[T]he following can be said with certainty . . . with regards to what might be inspired in the many parts of Sacred Scripture, inerrancy applies only to ‘that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation’ (DV 11).”
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/syno ... ly_en.html

(lots of other opinions)

Hope that helps.

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Re: Dinosaur tracks in the Paluxy riverbed.

Post #113

Post by Miles »

The Barbarian wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:07 am
Miles wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:57 pm And I won't even bother to ask how All scripture can be given by God, but not every word in the bible is.
If someone gets an order from his boss, and writes a memo to his employees, the order is given by the boss, but not every word in the memo is,
"Is" what? All scripture is said to be given by god (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and every word God utters is true (Proverbs 30:5-6).

You've just collided with the difference between "infallible" and "inerrant." Most Christians recognize the difference, but as usual, many disagree on where the border is:
https://www.ministrymatters.com/all/ent ... difference
I've always considered the difference between the two to be: Inerrant means there are no errors while infallible means there can be no errors, which I take to mean Bible is without errors because it has to be---god being its author and all. Although, as it turns out god is not without making mistakes himself, which throws the whole notion of infallibility/inerrancy up for question.

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Re: Dinosaur tracks in the Paluxy riverbed.

Post #114

Post by The Barbarian »

Miles wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:19 pm
The Barbarian wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:07 am If someone gets an order from his boss, and writes a memo to his employees, the order is given by the boss, but not every word in the memo is,
"Is" what? All scripture is said to be given by god (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and every word God utters is true (Proverbs 30:5-6).
Which is not to say that every word God utters is accurately transcribed. Hence the difference between infallibility and inerrancy.

You've just collided with the difference between "infallible" and "inerrant." Most Christians recognize the difference, but as usual, many disagree on where the border is:
https://www.ministrymatters.com/all/ent ... difference
I've always considered the difference between the two to be: Inerrant means there are no errors while infallible means there can be no errors, which I take to mean Bible is without errors because it has to be---god being its author and all. Although, as it turns out god is not without making mistakes himself, which throws the whole notion of infallibility/inerrancy up for question.
[/quote]

That seems to depend on the belief that the people who wrote the books of the Bible were doing word for word what God said. That's not a very common belief among Christians.

“[T]he following can be said with certainty . . . with regards to what might be inspired in the many parts of Sacred Scripture, inerrancy applies only to ‘that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation’ (DV 11).”
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/syno ... ly_en.html

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Re: Dinosaur tracks in the Paluxy riverbed.

Post #115

Post by Miles »

The Barbarian wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:03 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:19 pm
The Barbarian wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:07 am If someone gets an order from his boss, and writes a memo to his employees, the order is given by the boss, but not every word in the memo is,
"Is" what? All scripture is said to be given by god (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and every word God utters is true (Proverbs 30:5-6).
Which is not to say that every word God utters is accurately transcribed. Hence the difference between infallibility and inerrancy.
Which brings the issue down to Otseng's question, "How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?" We can't. At least I certainly wouldn't.


You've just collided with the difference between "infallible" and "inerrant." Most Christians recognize the difference, but as usual, many disagree on where the border is:
https://www.ministrymatters.com/all/ent ... difference
I've always considered the difference between the two to be: Inerrant means there are no errors while infallible means there can be no errors, which I take to mean the Bible is without errors because it has to be---god being its author and all. Although, as it turns out god is not without making mistakes himself, which throws the whole notion of infallibility/inerrancy up for question.
That seems to depend on the belief that the people who wrote the books of the Bible were doing word for word what God said. That's not a very common belief among Christians.
A common belief or not, that's what "inerrancy" and "infallibility" denote: without error. Don't think the Bible is without error? Then don't go around calling it (god's word) inerrant or infallible.


“[T]he following can be said with certainty . . . with regards to what might be inspired in the many parts of Sacred Scripture, inerrancy applies only to ‘that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation’ (DV 11).”
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/syno ... ly_en.html
Sorry, but I have no reason to care what a synod of Catholic bishops says about chopped liver.

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Re: Dinosaur tracks in the Paluxy riverbed.

Post #116

Post by The Barbarian »

Which brings the issue down to Otseng's question, "How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?" We can't. At least I certainly wouldn't.
We can't read it like a legal document. Ironically, both fundamentalists and atheists seem to assume that's how it should be read. But ultimately, one must accept any religion's sacred book on faith.
A common belief or not, that's what "inerrancy" and "infallibility" denote: without error. Don't think the Bible is without error? Then don't go around calling it (god's word) inerrant or infallible.
It's just a matter of whether or not you think it's written like a contract. Most Christians don't think so, and that's the distinction.
Sorry, but I have no reason to care what a synod of Catholic bishops says about chopped liver.
I'm guessing they don't care what you think of it, either.

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