Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith

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Joe Citizen
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Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith

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Post by Joe Citizen »

I've read the bible (old and new testaments) cover to cover twice in my life. I use the Student Bible of the International version. I'm now on my third time around, however I find myself really struggling with acceptance of the old testament and it is causing me lose my faith (which previously was very strong). The old testament is full of overt violence, aggression and atrocities..... all supposedly committed at the behest of God. For example, God telling the Israelites the slaughter very man, woman and child (numbering in the tens of thousands) in neighboring tribes many times, and actually punishing the Israelites for showing mercy (and therefore disobeying his orders). That does not sound like a kind, loving God. And, why didn't an omnipotent God just do this himself? So, it makes you doubt ALL of the old testament (and by extension the new testament too). I'm not sure how people are supposed to get moral lessons and directions for proper living from that. It seems to vary wildly from the more loving messages in the new testament, but even Jesus himself frequently refers back to the old testament, it's prophets and teachings.

There also are numerous laws/directives (Leviticus, Deuteronomy etc) , aside from the 10 commandments, that seem to have no point/purpose and don't seem to have anything to do with a loving message (ex: Don't cook a young goat in the milk of it's mother). Again, applying a logical mind, this leaves me with more and more doubts.

I rationalize the time period, the potential translational errors, the potential political interference etc., but logical analysis still leaves me shaken.

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Eddie Ramos
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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith

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Post by Eddie Ramos »

Joe Citizen wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:59 pm I've read the bible (old and new testaments) cover to cover twice in my life. I use the Student Bible of the International version. I'm now on my third time around, however I find myself really struggling with acceptance of the old testament and it is causing me lose my faith (which previously was very strong). The old testament is full of overt violence, aggression and atrocities..... all supposedly committed at the behest of God. For example, God telling the Israelites the slaughter very man, woman and child (numbering in the tens of thousands) in neighboring tribes many times, and actually punishing the Israelites for showing mercy (and therefore disobeying his orders). That does not sound like a kind, loving God. And, why didn't an omnipotent God just do this himself? So, it makes you doubt ALL of the old testament (and by extension the new testament too). I'm not sure how people are supposed to get moral lessons and directions for proper living from that. It seems to vary wildly from the more loving messages in the new testament, but even Jesus himself frequently refers back to the old testament, it's prophets and teachings.

There also are numerous laws/directives (Leviticus, Deuteronomy etc) , aside from the 10 commandments, that seem to have no point/purpose and don't seem to have anything to do with a loving message (ex: Don't cook a young goat in the milk of it's mother). Again, applying a logical mind, this leaves me with more and more doubts.

I rationalize the time period, the potential translational errors, the potential political interference etc., but logical analysis still leaves me shaken.
I think you hit on the exact reason why you're struggling with the way the Bible has been written. You used the word "logical" twice which means that you are trying to understand a spiritual book with a natural mind rather than with the mind of Christ. The Bible teaches us that God's words (the Bible) are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:11–14 (KJV 1900)
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned
.


The Bible was written as a parabolic book, meaning, that everything we read, has a greater spiritual meaning. This applies even to the actual historical events we read in the Old Testament. How can we know? Because God takes us by the hand and shows us. Let me show you:

Deuteronomy 25:4 (KJV 1900)
Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.


Here is an Old Testament law that was apparently randomly inserted with no context before it or after it, and when we read it in the Old Testament, we dismiss it as Old Testament law, therefore irrelevant to us, and continue reading hundreds of other laws similar to this one. To us today, they would seem irrelevant, but that's because we're not taking the time to ask, why did God put that in the Bible? Was it just for information purposes for me to know what the Old Testament Jews had to do, or was it for something far greater? And the answer is that God doesn't write anything in His Word that isn't useful for doctrine, for correction, for reproof, or for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16). But, this piece of law would be impossible to understand, had not God taken us by the hand and showed us the spiritual meaning behind the law we wrote off as irrelevant.

1 Corinthians 9:7–10 (KJV 1900)
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? 8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

1 Corinthians 9:13–14 (KJV 1900)
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.


From this law and explanation of why this law was written, we learn that god gave this law, not because he cared for the oxen's welfare, but because he cares more for his people. By this seemingly irrelevant law, God has concealed a greater spiritual truth. That truth being that a person who labors for the sake of the gospel should not be forbidden from making a living by doing it. But then this gets into man's greed, which God also addresses in the Bible.

But, God has given us many examples of the Old Testament law, while having been fulfilled in Christ, still maintains every bit of spiritual relevance to this very day. And our job is to find it by our rightly dividing the Word of truth.

Historical events in the Old Testament, are approached the same way. In our reading/study, we're to ask, what is God trying to teach me by writing this account the way he did? For example, you mentioned God's command to Saul to utterly slay every man, woman and child of the Amalekites, yet Saul spared the king.

1 Samuel 15:3 (KJV 1900)
3 Now go and smite Amalek (Amalek is a city), and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


According to our logic of morality, this seems to be very harsh and doesn't reflect the love that we should have for every man. But when we look for the greater spiritual meaning, we learn that this specific city called Amalek, is being targeted by God because of what they did to his people, (the nation of Israel) when they were in the wilderness. Amalek came out and attacked the nation of Israel. Or to put it another way, Amalek came out and attacked the people of God in the wilderness. Well, as we compare scriptures with scriptures, we learn that Amalek is a type and figure of the kingdom of Satan, and Israel in the wilderness, a type and figure of the true people of God in the world. As this enemy relentlessly attacked the nation of Israel, so to the Devil and his kingdom relentlessly came after the true people of God. When we understand what Amalek represents, then we can understand why they came out against Israel in the wilderness and why God made the statement that he made here:

Exodus 17:8–16 (KJV 1900)
Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim. 9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand. 10 So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill. 11 And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed. 12 But Moses’ hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun. 13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword. 14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven. 15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovah-nissi: 16 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.


God will have war with the kingdom of Satan from generation to generation. Now, when we read of God's command to king Saul to utterly destroy everything and everyone in the city of Amalek, we can better understand why. It's because of who Amalek represented. We can also know why God was so displeased with Saul letting the king of Amalek live. That equates to letting Satan live when God commanded his death.

I hope this helps in your reading/study of the Bible.

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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith

Post #3

Post by Miles »

.

Welcome to DC&R.

Just to put myself in perspective, I'm a hard determinist, atheist.

As for your doubts about god's ethics' and moral conduct, principally as portrayed in the Old Testament, it's no wonder many Christians want to distance themselves from it as best they can by dismissing its relevance, and stick with the New Testament. However, the fact is, what god said back in the the OT is still suppose to hold true today---if one believes what's been written:

Malachi 3:6
For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

Psalm 119:89
Forever, O Lord, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.

Therefore, unless god has specifically changed his mind on an issue, what he said and did back in OT times still holds true today. And this another reason some Christians don't particularly like the OT, it demands too much cherry picking to make their theology work. I mean, who wants a god who condones slavery, wants practicing male homosexuals put to death (Lesbians get a bye on such punishment), and has no qualms about having conquered women, children and infants put to death. This is no loving god, but a barbaric, inhumane despot at work. Yet millions upon millions of people look to him for moral guidance. Someone who uses suffering to test the faith of his followers.

"In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. (1 Pet. 1:6-7)

And How does he do this? In part at least by creating evil. (Note that he didn't just create evil but creates it. It's an ongoing process)

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)

And ministers, preachers, priests, nuns all tell you to love, adore, and worship this creature. As for myself, anybody I choose to love and follow will have far better ethical standards and moral principals than the God of Abraham.

.
Last edited by Miles on Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith

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Post by Tcg »

[Replying to Joe Citizen in post #1]

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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith

Post #5

Post by Joe Citizen »

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #2]

I hope I replied correctly to this post. Thanks Eddie for your insightful reply. I had these thoughts while reading it:

(1) Saul was just one example of many times in the OT that God instructed and condoned brutal violence, and sometimes there is no mention of the victims being evil or doing wrong in the eyes of the Lord. Sometimes, it appears the violence is done to gain more land for the Israelites (expansionist aggression). And, even if the victims were evil, surely the helpless children weren't? Also, the New Testament tells us to love our enemies and that God forgives all sins....so why the brutal violence? I wonder if the writers of the OT perhaps mis-documented this, or mis-interpreted something, or God didn't really tell them this.... they just used it as an excuse to justify their actions? I can see mankind committing violence (has done so throughout history and today), but I have a hard time accepting that God would do it (even if to teach a symbolic lesson).

(2) If blind faith is to bridge the gaps (and not logic), then what is to stop writers of other theological doctrines from demanding the same blind faith.... in which case we end up with a plethora of religions and we can't tell which is the true one?

Please don't get me wrong, I'm really trying to understand and I really want to retain my faith, but for some reason the OT is having the opposite effect on me this time around.

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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith

Post #6

Post by The Tanager »

[Replying to Joe Citizen in post #1]

First off, let me encourage you (and you may already be of this mind) to not settle for surface answers either for or against the Bible offering truth. I am of the same mind as you, putting a great emphasis on logic, as I believe God, if God exists, is logical and the very ground or basis of logic existing in reality.

I’ve wrestled with many of these same questions. People who look deeply at these issues have come down on both sides, so I urge you to read both sides. Although, with your initial thoughts on the picture of the Old Testament, you may need to read more of the well-thought out Christian writers on these issues since you are already feeling the case for the other side. Of course, continue to read those who believe the picture is often of an evil God, but I’m talking about balancing out your search for answers on this. I feel that my faith has grown tremendously by looking into these questions and wrestling with these issues over my whole Christian life.

There is no one easy answer that covers every story, you’ve got to look at each one. I think the OT, like other writings of the day, uses exaggerative language, that children and wives would often not be in the areas that were attacked, and much more can be said. But, even if one would conclude that some of the details still result in an evil God, one can be a Christian without believing in the full divine inspiration of the whole Bible, so even this should not result in losing one’s faith.

As to the laws that seem to have no purpose, some of them are specific to that culture, but even then they are still based on principles that would connect to us today. Many of them are about making a space clean so that God can come down and meet with us without his perfect goodness destroying us.

One more thought on your post. I first approached the Bible as a book for moral lessons and directions for proper living. I think now that the message of the Bible is that humans can’t be moral through following directions and lessons, but that we need to see our inability to be perfectly loving and that God, through Jesus, is offering a relationship with us to help us do just that, step by step, as we continue to mess up, get up, and try again.

Anyway, I’m glad you are here and hope you get to share more of your thoughts to challenge all of us and continue to get challenged in your own thoughts.

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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith

Post #7

Post by otseng »

[Replying to Joe Citizen in post #1]

The more I've studied the Bible, the more I'm convinced of its truthfulness. I'm now debating How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?, which is one of the longest running threads on the forum.

One thing interesting about the Bible is superficially, things don't make sense and sometimes even appears ridiculous. But, if you study the original languages, history, archaeology, and sciences, it actually makes sense. Reading and truly understanding the Bible is not a trivial task. But I would encourage you to not just read the Bible, but to deeply study it. Read through the above thread and you'll get a sense of what I'm talking about.

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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith

Post #8

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Joe Citizen wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:59 pm Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith
A testament to your fine reading compression and rational thinking skills.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith

Post #9

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Joe Citizen wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:59 pm
I rationalize the time period, the potential translational errors, the potential political interference etc., but logical analysis still leaves me shaken.
Well, you've got a couole of options open to you, you can continue to search for satisfying answers to your questions, accepting help from bible teachers. Or you can give up.


JEHOVAHS WITNESS
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith

Post #10

Post by otseng »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:25 am
Joe Citizen wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:59 pm Reading Bible is causing me to lose my faith
A testament to your fine reading compression and rational thinking skills.
Having studied the Bible for over 30 years and argued about the Bible on this forum for 19 years, I'm now even more convinced of the truthfulness of the Bible.

Here's the ironic thing. If one just reads the Bible, it is easy to lose your faith. However, if one studies the Bible, it generally leads to increasing your faith. We see this also with Jesus. He never made it easy to be a disciple. Things he said didn't make sense to most. He spoke in parables that needed to be decoded and not just taken at face value.

So, don't just read the Bible, but study the Bible.

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