Abraham’s Visitors

[MissKate13]

An Interlinear will show that YHWH was one of three who paid a visit to Abraham. YHWH came to earth as a man. He and the other visitors ate food as any human would do. It was YHWH who Abraham repeatedly asked if there were any righteous men in Sodom would He still destroy it?

If we can believe that YHWH came to earth in the form of a human being, ate and spoke as a man with Abraham, how is it some refuse to believe YHWH came to earth as a man called Jesus?

[MissKate13]

...how is it some refuse to believe YHWH came to earth as a man called Jesus?

Because Jesus says there is only one true God that is greater than him.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

You heard how I told you, ‘I go away, and I come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said ‘I am going to my Father;’ for the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

What do you think, should I rather believe you or Jesus?

Did YHWH visit Abraham? Yes or no?

What I think you should do is read John 17:3 in its immediate and broader context of the Scriptures.. Cherry picking proves nothing.

In John 17:2, Jesus says that he has authority over all mankind. Who but GOD has ALL authority over man?

In John 17:5, Jesus says he SHARES THE SAME GLORY he had BEFORE THE WORLD EXISTED. Who but GOD can have the glory of GOD?

Jesus was not excluding himself when speaking of the only true God in 17:3 just as the Father doesn’t exclude the Son being GOD IN Hebrews 1:8. Jesus is not denying his deity in John 17:3.

In Hebrews 1:8, the Father addresses the SON as GOD. In Hebrews 1:10, the Father addresses the Son as Lord.

Is the Father saying he is not God since he calls his Son God?

In John 13:13, Jesus refers to himself as Master and Lord.

Does this mean the Father isn’t Master and Lord?

Jude writes, “…ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:4).

Does Jude mean the Father is not Master and Lord?

John writes in 1 John 5:20, “And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD, and eternal life.” (emphasis mine).

Is John saying the Father is not the TRUE GOD?

2 Peter 1:1 “Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:”

Is Peter saying the Father is not GOD since he refers to JESUS as GOD?

CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING!

[JoeyKnothead]

...
CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING!

DO FACTS MATTER?

[JehovahsWitness]

An Interlinear will show that YHWH was one of three who paid a visit to Abraham. YHWH came to earth as a man. He and the other visitors ate food as any human would do. It was YHWH who Abraham repeatedly asked if there were any righteous men in Sodom would He still destroy it?

If we can believe that YHWH came to earth in the form of a human being, ate and spoke as a man with Abraham, how is it some refuse to believe YHWH came to earth as a man called Jesus?

None of Abrahams visitors were YHWH (Jehovah); they REPRESENTED and spoke for Jehovah so were called "Jehovah" (YHWH) in the narrative. God was quite catagoric on this, no man can literally see God and live, so Abraham did not see God.







JW




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GOD, THE DIVINE NAME and ...THE TRINITY

[Diogenes]

What I think you should do is read John 17:3 in its immediate and broader context of the Scriptures.. Cherry picking proves nothing.

Quoting scripture proves nothing. See the guidelines for C & A at viewtopic.php?t=9741

1. We are debating Christianity, pro and con, for and against, not debating with the assumption that Christianity is true. Please realize that people on the forum are from all worldview backgrounds and do not necessarily share the same assumptions.

2. Avoid using the Bible as the sole source to prove that Christianity is true.

3. For factual claims like the existence of individuals, places, and events, the Bible can be considered as providing evidence, but not necessarily conclusive evidence.

4. Unsupported Bible quotations are to be considered as no more authoritative than unsupported quotations from any other book.

5. Please avoid "preaching" and using the forum as simply a way to blast people with the gospel message. This is a debating forum, not a convenient place to overtly proselytize.

[PolytheistWitch]

[Replying to MissKate13 in post #1]

Do you believe in Hercules and Zeus? If not why? What part of the Old Testament do you feel justifies the Messiah being a demigod? This is not a typically accepted concept in Judaism.

[Difflugia]

None of Abrahams visitors were YHWH (Jehovah); they REPRESENTED and spoke for Jehovah so were called "Jehovah" (YHWH) in the narrative.

What's your method for determining when the Bible doesn't actually say what it says? That would be helpful for us to know.

God was quite catagoric on this, no man can literally see God and live, so Abraham did not see God.

Apparently Abraham literally did see (and speak to) God and lived. So the Bible must have just been a bit hyperbolic when it appears to claim otherwise. When harmonizing contradictory verses, one can decide that either of the verses says something other than what it does. Your mistake lies in insisting ("categorically," as it were) that it must be one rather than the other.

ETA: I just saw this in another thread and thought it would be funny to juxtapose here:

Again, because you take the Bible at face value, you arrive at these faulty interpretations.

There is no reason not to take it at face value.
However, because the Bible must fit YOUR dogma I imagine you must insert man-made meanings to change it's meaning to fit YOUR dogma.
I and many others do not need to change the way the scripture reads to fit our dogma.

[2timothy316]

None of Abrahams visitors were YHWH (Jehovah); they REPRESENTED and spoke for Jehovah so were called "Jehovah" (YHWH) in the narrative.

What's your method for determining when the Bible doesn't actually say what it says? That would be helpful for us to know.

God was quite catagoric on this, no man can literally see God and live, so Abraham did not see God.

Apparently Abraham literally did see (and speak to) God and lived. So the Bible must have just been a bit hyperbolic when it appears to claim otherwise. When harmonizing contradictory verses, one can decide that either of the verses says something other than what it does. Your mistake lies in insisting ("categorically," as it were) that it must be one rather than the other.

ETA: I just saw this in another thread and thought it would be funny to juxtapose here:

Again, because you take the Bible at face value, you arrive at these faulty interpretations.

There is no reason not to take it at face value.
However, because the Bible must fit YOUR dogma I imagine you must insert man-made meanings to change it's meaning to fit YOUR dogma.
I and many others do not need to change the way the scripture reads to fit our dogma.

You're talking my comment out of context as it is not a comment on what Abraham said. Because there IS a reason not to take what Abraham said at face value because what is said to Moses at Exodus 33:20. But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

Misuse of a juxtapose as what I said is not a blanket statement and not for the debate in this thread.

[Difflugia]

You're talking my comment out of context as it is not a comment on what Abraham said.

That's right. It was a comment on the Bible as a whole, which I rather think applies here.

Because there IS a reason not to take what Abraham said at face value because what is said to Moses at Exodus 33:20. But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

Maybe you can answer the question I posed to JehovahsWitness: when two verses contradict each other, what's your method for deciding which one is wrong?

Misuse of a juxtapose as what I said is not a blanket statement and not for the debate in this thread.

And yet, here we are.

[SacredBishop]

Jehovah sent Jesus to Abraham. Jesus ate the meal with Abraham. As it is written," Abraham rejoiced to see Me on that day," John 8:56. Abraham rejoiced and cooked the meal for Jesus. The two Angels simply watched Jesus and Abraham eat and rejoice together. Jehovah was sitting on His throne watching as well. When Jesus and Abraham finished their meal, the two Angels destroyed some cities. Abraham tried to talk Jesus out of it though.

[2timothy316]

You're talking my comment out of context as it is not a comment on what Abraham said.

That's right. It was a comment on the Bible as a whole, which I rather think applies here.

Because there IS a reason not to take what Abraham said at face value because what is said to Moses at Exodus 33:20. But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

Maybe you can answer the question I posed to JehovahsWitness: when two verses contradict each other, what's your method for deciding which one is wrong?

My comment wasn't a blanket statement but you're trying to use it as one and you're wrong in doing that.
Neither scripture is wrong. It means you're missing more information or unwilling to accept more information. Which ones are you comparing Exodus 33:20?

Misuse of a juxtapose as what I said is not a blanket statement and not for the debate in this thread.

And yet, here we are.

Desperate I guess?