An Interlinear will show that YHWH was one of three who paid a visit to Abraham. YHWH came to earth as a man. He and the other visitors ate food as any human would do. It was YHWH who Abraham repeatedly asked if there were any righteous men in Sodom would He still destroy it?
If we can believe that YHWH came to earth in the form of a human being, ate and spoke as a man with Abraham, how is it some refuse to believe YHWH came to earth as a man called Jesus?
Abraham’s Visitors
Moderator: Moderators
-
- Sage
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:55 am
- Has thanked: 24 times
- Been thanked: 60 times
Abraham’s Visitors
Post #1”For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24
- Difflugia
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3017
- Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
- Location: Michigan
- Has thanked: 3247 times
- Been thanked: 1997 times
Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #21I read the thread again. What you wrote referred to "the Bible" without modification. The argument you were having spanned multiple Bible verses, all of which were meant to be representative of the Bible as a whole. To borrow a phrase, "there's no reason not to take it at face value." Backpedaling now doesn't change what you wrote then. In fact, it just makes the whole thing funnier.
Not everything that's embarrassing to you is wrong.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmbut you're trying to use it as one and you're wrong in doing that.
Should we be politically correct and call them "differently right?"
Like that "YHWH said" doesn't really mean "YHWH said."2timothy316 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmIt means you're missing more information or unwilling to accept more information.
Exodus 33:11.
And projecting, apparently.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.
-
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4161
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 175 times
- Been thanked: 457 times
Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #22Desperate comment Ignored.Difflugia wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:52 pmI read the thread again. What you wrote referred to "the Bible" without modification. The argument you were having spanned multiple Bible verses, all of which were meant to be representative of the Bible as a whole. To borrow a phrase, "there's no reason not to take it at face value." Backpedaling now doesn't change what you wrote then. In fact, it just makes the whole thing funnier.
Desperate comment Ignored.Not everything that's embarrassing to you is wrong.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmbut you're trying to use it as one and you're wrong in doing that.
Desperate comment Ignored.Should we be politically correct and call them "differently right?"
No. That figures of speech do happen in the Bible and have willing decided to reject that fact. Face to face in the Bible literally translates to mouth to mouth in Hebrew. Face to face would be a back and forth conversation. Not literally face to face. Just like if I said, "you contently lie to my face", though that person has never seen my face. It means to lie to me without hiding it. In the same manner, God and Moses spoke to each other hiding nothing. In fact that is what the scripture supports in Numbers 12:8. "Face-to-face I speak to him, openly, not by riddles." In fact Jehovah never spoke to Moses directly. The Law “was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator,” states Galatians 3:19. Acts 7:38 speaking of Moses states: “This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers.”Like that "YHWH said" doesn't really mean "YHWH said."2timothy316 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmIt means you're missing more information or unwilling to accept more information.
Desperate comment Ignored.And projecting, apparently.
-
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4161
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 175 times
- Been thanked: 457 times
Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #232timothy316 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:18 pmDesperate comment Ignored.Difflugia wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:52 pmI read the thread again. What you wrote referred to "the Bible" without modification. The argument you were having spanned multiple Bible verses, all of which were meant to be representative of the Bible as a whole. To borrow a phrase, "there's no reason not to take it at face value." Backpedaling now doesn't change what you wrote then. In fact, it just makes the whole thing funnier.Desperate comment Ignored.Not everything that's embarrassing to you is wrong.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmbut you're trying to use it as one and you're wrong in doing that.Desperate comment Ignored.Should we be politically correct and call them "differently right?"No. That figures of speech do happen in the Bible and you have willing decided to reject that fact. Face to face in the Bible literally translates to mouth to mouth in Hebrew. Face to face would be a back and forth conversation. Not literally face to face. Just like if I said, "you contently lie to my face", though that person has never seen my face. It means to lie to me without hiding it. In the same manner, God and Moses spoke to each other hiding nothing. In fact that is what the scripture supports in Numbers 12:8. "Face-to-face I speak to him, openly, not by riddles." In fact Jehovah never spoke to Moses directly. The Law “was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator,” states Galatians 3:19. Acts 7:38 speaking of Moses states: “This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers.”Like that "YHWH said" doesn't really mean "YHWH said."2timothy316 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmIt means you're missing more information or unwilling to accept more information.Desperate comment Ignored.And projecting, apparently.
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21073
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 790 times
- Been thanked: 1114 times
- Contact:
Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #24The bible says no man can see God and live.
What's your method for determining when the Bible doesn't actually say what it says? The plain meaning of the words are clear, there's no "appear" about it: No human can see God and live! End of story.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
- Diogenes
- Guru
- Posts: 1304
- Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 12:53 pm
- Location: Washington
- Has thanked: 862 times
- Been thanked: 1265 times
Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #25SacredBishop wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:22 pm Jehovah sent Jesus to Abraham. Jesus ate the meal with Abraham. As it is written," Abraham rejoiced to see Me on that day," John 8:56. Abraham rejoiced and cooked the meal for Jesus. The two Angels simply watched Jesus and Abraham eat and rejoice together. Jehovah was sitting on His throne watching as well. When Jesus and Abraham finished their meal, the two Angels destroyed some cities. Abraham tried to talk Jesus out of it though.
Right. Jesus and Abraham, a thousand years or so apart... if Abraham was even a real person.
I read this utter nonsense, this fantasy and make believe from the Bible (the author of John's gospel and the other 'John' who wrote Revelation being the most fantastic, and I wonder if there is ANYTHING you folks would not believe as long as 'It's in the Book!'
Relatively factual accounts like Mark and Matthew are light years away from the weirdo preaching of John, but it makes no never mind. I suggest there is nothing fantastic enough, nothing crazy or impossible enough that believers won't buy, lock, stock, and locker-full-of baloney, IF it's in the Bible. Talking snakes, world wide floods, God telling people to rape, steal, and enslave... there's no end to the evil and the fantastic that isn't lovingly justified if the right 'god' did it.
___________________________________
“Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves”
— Confucius
“Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves”
— Confucius
-
- Student
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:29 pm
- Location: USA
- Has thanked: 9 times
- Been thanked: 17 times
Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #26Anytime someone visits a human being for the God of Abraham, they're an angel or the Holy Spirit. I don't see why all of a sudden now it's God himself or Jesus. Other than the burning bush there's no record of God directly visiting anyone, especially in any sort of human or humanoid form.
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21073
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 790 times
- Been thanked: 1114 times
- Contact:
Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #27Even with the burning bush it was an angel.PolytheistWitch wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:46 pm Anytime someone visits a human being for the God of Abraham, they're an angel or the Holy Spirit. I don't see why all of a sudden now it's God himself or Jesus. Other than the burning bush there's no record of God directly visiting anyone, especially in any sort of human or humanoid form.
And therein lies the point; the entire exchange has Moses speaking "to" Jehovah and Jehovah (YHWH) answering when it was in fact an angel, evidently communicating Jehovahs words.
God used angels to transmit his words, but the conversation Moses, Abraham and others had was with Him.To illustrate When you speak to somone on the phone you dont say "I had a conversation with my telephone" even though your words were in fact spoken in the direction of your phone. You were literally speaking to the instument in your hand, which transmitted your friends wwords to you. But when you speak about your conversation you cut out the "midddle man" because the phone had no input, it was just an instrument used to communicate.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
- SacredBishop
- Apprentice
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:55 pm
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 23 times
Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #28Well Jehovah watched everything from His throne. The talking snake, the flood, and even the composition of the books you mentioned: Matthew, Mark, and John. Why don't you believe Jehovah sent Jesus to chat with Abraham? Yet, you believe in talking snakes as you mentioned.Diogenes wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:42 pmSacredBishop wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:22 pm Jehovah sent Jesus to Abraham. Jesus ate the meal with Abraham. As it is written," Abraham rejoiced to see Me on that day," John 8:56. Abraham rejoiced and cooked the meal for Jesus. The two Angels simply watched Jesus and Abraham eat and rejoice together. Jehovah was sitting on His throne watching as well. When Jesus and Abraham finished their meal, the two Angels destroyed some cities. Abraham tried to talk Jesus out of it though.
Right. Jesus and Abraham, a thousand years or so apart... if Abraham was even a real person.
I read this utter nonsense, this fantasy and make believe from the Bible (the author of John's gospel and the other 'John' who wrote Revelation being the most fantastic, and I wonder if there is ANYTHING you folks would not believe as long as 'It's in the Book!'
Relatively factual accounts like Mark and Matthew are light years away from the weirdo preaching of John, but it makes no never mind. I suggest there is nothing fantastic enough, nothing crazy or impossible enough that believers won't buy, lock, stock, and locker-full-of baloney, IF it's in the Bible. Talking snakes, world wide floods, God telling people to rape, steal, and enslave... there's no end to the evil and the fantastic that isn't lovingly justified if the right 'god' did it.
- Diogenes
- Guru
- Posts: 1304
- Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 12:53 pm
- Location: Washington
- Has thanked: 862 times
- Been thanked: 1265 times
Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #29SacredBishop wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:50 pm Well Jehovah watched everything from His throne. The talking snake, the flood, and even the composition of the books you mentioned: Matthew, Mark, and John. Why don't you believe Jehovah sent Jesus to chat with Abraham? Yet, you believe in talking snakes as you mentioned.
Your reading comprehension is close to nil if you came to that conclusion. I wrote:
Talking snakes, world wide floods, God telling people to rape, steal, and enslave... there's no end to the evil and the fantastic that isn't lovingly justified if the right 'god' did it.
I cannot fathom how you'd garner from what I wrote that I believe in talking snakes. I don't. I don't believe any of the impossible nonsense in the Bible. It's either meant metaphorically, or it's just plain goofy.
If there is still any doubt in your mind, I'll try to be more clear. I do not believe anyone flew to 'heaven' in a fiery chariot. I do not believe the serpent in the garden spoke. These are fables for the feeble minded. They were never meant to be taken literally.
"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways," and quit believing in the childish fairy tales of the Bible.
___________________________________
“Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves”
— Confucius
“Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves”
— Confucius
- SacredBishop
- Apprentice
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:55 pm
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 23 times
Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #30I never said a talking snake flew to heaven in a fiery chariot. Your "reading comprehension is nil". Perhaps you had a " feeble minded" Sunday school teacher if you were told " talking snake .. said to rape and murder" .Diogenes wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:30 pmSacredBishop wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:50 pm Well Jehovah watched everything from His throne. The talking snake, the flood, and even the composition of the books you mentioned: Matthew, Mark, and John. Why don't you believe Jehovah sent Jesus to chat with Abraham? Yet, you believe in talking snakes as you mentioned.
Your reading comprehension is close to nil if you came to that conclusion. I wrote:Talking snakes, world wide floods, God telling people to rape, steal, and enslave... there's no end to the evil and the fantastic that isn't lovingly justified if the right 'god' did it.
I cannot fathom how you'd garner from what I wrote that I believe in talking snakes. I don't. I don't believe any of the impossible nonsense in the Bible. It's either meant metaphorically, or it's just plain goofy.
If there is still any doubt in your mind, I'll try to be more clear. I do not believe anyone flew to 'heaven' in a fiery chariot. I do not believe the serpent in the garden spoke. These are fables for the feeble minded. They were never meant to be taken literally.
"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways," and quit believing in the childish fairy tales of the Bible.