Abraham’s Visitors

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Abraham’s Visitors

Post #1

Post by MissKate13 »

An Interlinear will show that YHWH was one of three who paid a visit to Abraham. YHWH came to earth as a man. He and the other visitors ate food as any human would do. It was YHWH who Abraham repeatedly asked if there were any righteous men in Sodom would He still destroy it?

If we can believe that YHWH came to earth in the form of a human being, ate and spoke as a man with Abraham, how is it some refuse to believe YHWH came to earth as a man called Jesus?
”For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24

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Re: Abraham’s Visitors

Post #21

Post by Difflugia »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmMy comment wasn't a blanket statement
I read the thread again. What you wrote referred to "the Bible" without modification. The argument you were having spanned multiple Bible verses, all of which were meant to be representative of the Bible as a whole. To borrow a phrase, "there's no reason not to take it at face value." Backpedaling now doesn't change what you wrote then. In fact, it just makes the whole thing funnier.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmbut you're trying to use it as one and you're wrong in doing that.
Not everything that's embarrassing to you is wrong.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmNeither scripture is wrong.
Should we be politically correct and call them "differently right?"
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmIt means you're missing more information or unwilling to accept more information.
Like that "YHWH said" doesn't really mean "YHWH said."
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmWhich ones are you comparing Exodus 33:20?
Exodus 33:11.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmDesperate I guess? :confused2:
And projecting, apparently.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Abraham’s Visitors

Post #22

Post by 2timothy316 »

Difflugia wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:52 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmMy comment wasn't a blanket statement
I read the thread again. What you wrote referred to "the Bible" without modification. The argument you were having spanned multiple Bible verses, all of which were meant to be representative of the Bible as a whole. To borrow a phrase, "there's no reason not to take it at face value." Backpedaling now doesn't change what you wrote then. In fact, it just makes the whole thing funnier.
Desperate comment Ignored.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmbut you're trying to use it as one and you're wrong in doing that.
Not everything that's embarrassing to you is wrong.
Desperate comment Ignored.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmNeither scripture is wrong.
Should we be politically correct and call them "differently right?"
Desperate comment Ignored.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmIt means you're missing more information or unwilling to accept more information.
Like that "YHWH said" doesn't really mean "YHWH said."
No. That figures of speech do happen in the Bible and have willing decided to reject that fact. Face to face in the Bible literally translates to mouth to mouth in Hebrew. Face to face would be a back and forth conversation. Not literally face to face. Just like if I said, "you contently lie to my face", though that person has never seen my face. It means to lie to me without hiding it. In the same manner, God and Moses spoke to each other hiding nothing. In fact that is what the scripture supports in Numbers 12:8. "Face-to-face I speak to him, openly, not by riddles." In fact Jehovah never spoke to Moses directly. The Law “was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator,” states Galatians 3:19. Acts 7:38 speaking of Moses states: “This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers.”
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmDesperate I guess? :confused2:
And projecting, apparently.
Desperate comment Ignored.

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Re: Abraham’s Visitors

Post #23

Post by 2timothy316 »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:18 pm
Difflugia wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:52 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmMy comment wasn't a blanket statement
I read the thread again. What you wrote referred to "the Bible" without modification. The argument you were having spanned multiple Bible verses, all of which were meant to be representative of the Bible as a whole. To borrow a phrase, "there's no reason not to take it at face value." Backpedaling now doesn't change what you wrote then. In fact, it just makes the whole thing funnier.
Desperate comment Ignored.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmbut you're trying to use it as one and you're wrong in doing that.
Not everything that's embarrassing to you is wrong.
Desperate comment Ignored.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmNeither scripture is wrong.
Should we be politically correct and call them "differently right?"
Desperate comment Ignored.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmIt means you're missing more information or unwilling to accept more information.
Like that "YHWH said" doesn't really mean "YHWH said."
No. That figures of speech do happen in the Bible and you have willing decided to reject that fact. Face to face in the Bible literally translates to mouth to mouth in Hebrew. Face to face would be a back and forth conversation. Not literally face to face. Just like if I said, "you contently lie to my face", though that person has never seen my face. It means to lie to me without hiding it. In the same manner, God and Moses spoke to each other hiding nothing. In fact that is what the scripture supports in Numbers 12:8. "Face-to-face I speak to him, openly, not by riddles." In fact Jehovah never spoke to Moses directly. The Law “was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator,” states Galatians 3:19. Acts 7:38 speaking of Moses states: “This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers.”
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:25 pmDesperate I guess? :confused2:
And projecting, apparently.
Desperate comment Ignored.

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Re: Abraham’s Visitors

Post #24

Post by JehovahsWitness »

The bible says no man can see God and live.



Difflugia wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:17 pm... the Bible must have just been a bit hyperbolic when it appears to claim otherwise.
What's your method for determining when the Bible doesn't actually say what it says? The plain meaning of the words are clear, there's no "appear" about it: No human can see God and live! End of story.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Abraham’s Visitors

Post #25

Post by Diogenes »

SacredBishop wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:22 pm Jehovah sent Jesus to Abraham. Jesus ate the meal with Abraham. As it is written," Abraham rejoiced to see Me on that day," John 8:56. Abraham rejoiced and cooked the meal for Jesus. The two Angels simply watched Jesus and Abraham eat and rejoice together. Jehovah was sitting on His throne watching as well. When Jesus and Abraham finished their meal, the two Angels destroyed some cities. Abraham tried to talk Jesus out of it though.

Right. Jesus and Abraham, a thousand years or so apart... if Abraham was even a real person.

I read this utter nonsense, this fantasy and make believe from the Bible (the author of John's gospel and the other 'John' who wrote Revelation being the most fantastic, and I wonder if there is ANYTHING you folks would not believe as long as 'It's in the Book!'

Relatively factual accounts like Mark and Matthew are light years away from the weirdo preaching of John, but it makes no never mind. I suggest there is nothing fantastic enough, nothing crazy or impossible enough that believers won't buy, lock, stock, and locker-full-of baloney, IF it's in the Bible. Talking snakes, world wide floods, God telling people to rape, steal, and enslave... there's no end to the evil and the fantastic that isn't lovingly justified if the right 'god' did it.
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Re: Abraham’s Visitors

Post #26

Post by PolytheistWitch »

Anytime someone visits a human being for the God of Abraham, they're an angel or the Holy Spirit. I don't see why all of a sudden now it's God himself or Jesus. Other than the burning bush there's no record of God directly visiting anyone, especially in any sort of human or humanoid form.

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Re: Abraham’s Visitors

Post #27

Post by JehovahsWitness »

PolytheistWitch wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:46 pm Anytime someone visits a human being for the God of Abraham, they're an angel or the Holy Spirit. I don't see why all of a sudden now it's God himself or Jesus. Other than the burning bush there's no record of God directly visiting anyone, especially in any sort of human or humanoid form.
Even with the burning bush it was an angel.


Image

And therein lies the point; the entire exchange has Moses speaking "to" Jehovah and Jehovah (YHWH) answering when it was in fact an angel, evidently communicating Jehovahs words.
To illustrate When you speak to somone on the phone you dont say "I had a conversation with my telephone" even though your words were in fact spoken in the direction of your phone. You were literally speaking to the instument in your hand, which transmitted your friends wwords to you. But when you speak about your conversation you cut out the "midddle man" because the phone had no input, it was just an instrument used to communicate.
God used angels to transmit his words, but the conversation Moses, Abraham and others had was with Him.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
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Re: Abraham’s Visitors

Post #28

Post by SacredBishop »

Diogenes wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:42 pm
SacredBishop wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:22 pm Jehovah sent Jesus to Abraham. Jesus ate the meal with Abraham. As it is written," Abraham rejoiced to see Me on that day," John 8:56. Abraham rejoiced and cooked the meal for Jesus. The two Angels simply watched Jesus and Abraham eat and rejoice together. Jehovah was sitting on His throne watching as well. When Jesus and Abraham finished their meal, the two Angels destroyed some cities. Abraham tried to talk Jesus out of it though.

Right. Jesus and Abraham, a thousand years or so apart... if Abraham was even a real person.

I read this utter nonsense, this fantasy and make believe from the Bible (the author of John's gospel and the other 'John' who wrote Revelation being the most fantastic, and I wonder if there is ANYTHING you folks would not believe as long as 'It's in the Book!'

Relatively factual accounts like Mark and Matthew are light years away from the weirdo preaching of John, but it makes no never mind. I suggest there is nothing fantastic enough, nothing crazy or impossible enough that believers won't buy, lock, stock, and locker-full-of baloney, IF it's in the Bible. Talking snakes, world wide floods, God telling people to rape, steal, and enslave... there's no end to the evil and the fantastic that isn't lovingly justified if the right 'god' did it.
Well Jehovah watched everything from His throne. The talking snake, the flood, and even the composition of the books you mentioned: Matthew, Mark, and John. Why don't you believe Jehovah sent Jesus to chat with Abraham? Yet, you believe in talking snakes as you mentioned.

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Re: Abraham’s Visitors

Post #29

Post by Diogenes »

SacredBishop wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:50 pm Well Jehovah watched everything from His throne. The talking snake, the flood, and even the composition of the books you mentioned: Matthew, Mark, and John. Why don't you believe Jehovah sent Jesus to chat with Abraham? Yet, you believe in talking snakes as you mentioned.

Your reading comprehension is close to nil if you came to that conclusion. I wrote:
Talking snakes, world wide floods, God telling people to rape, steal, and enslave... there's no end to the evil and the fantastic that isn't lovingly justified if the right 'god' did it.

I cannot fathom how you'd garner from what I wrote that I believe in talking snakes. I don't. I don't believe any of the impossible nonsense in the Bible. It's either meant metaphorically, or it's just plain goofy.

If there is still any doubt in your mind, I'll try to be more clear. I do not believe anyone flew to 'heaven' in a fiery chariot. I do not believe the serpent in the garden spoke. These are fables for the feeble minded. They were never meant to be taken literally.

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways," and quit believing in the childish fairy tales of the Bible.


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Re: Abraham’s Visitors

Post #30

Post by SacredBishop »

Diogenes wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:30 pm
SacredBishop wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:50 pm Well Jehovah watched everything from His throne. The talking snake, the flood, and even the composition of the books you mentioned: Matthew, Mark, and John. Why don't you believe Jehovah sent Jesus to chat with Abraham? Yet, you believe in talking snakes as you mentioned.

Your reading comprehension is close to nil if you came to that conclusion. I wrote:
Talking snakes, world wide floods, God telling people to rape, steal, and enslave... there's no end to the evil and the fantastic that isn't lovingly justified if the right 'god' did it.

I cannot fathom how you'd garner from what I wrote that I believe in talking snakes. I don't. I don't believe any of the impossible nonsense in the Bible. It's either meant metaphorically, or it's just plain goofy.

If there is still any doubt in your mind, I'll try to be more clear. I do not believe anyone flew to 'heaven' in a fiery chariot. I do not believe the serpent in the garden spoke. These are fables for the feeble minded. They were never meant to be taken literally.

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways," and quit believing in the childish fairy tales of the Bible.


I never said a talking snake flew to heaven in a fiery chariot. Your "reading comprehension is nil". Perhaps you had a " feeble minded" Sunday school teacher if you were told " talking snake .. said to rape and murder" .

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