Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #355]

So you do not need to be baptized, repent of sin, etc?

To receive God's grace, no. To be saved, yes.

Thus, grace is not conditional, salvation is.

According to your belief system, you are either saved, or you are not.

Thus, to be 'saved', is your answer D)?

To be saved is conditional, yes, but grace is not.

God gives his grace to all people. If we don't resist the grace, then it strengthens our faith. The stronger our faith the better our works. This is why all three are necessary for salvation, but that necessity doesn't entail that grace is conditional.

Maybe you can shed some light on your response here...? If God gives his <grace> to all people, then why does he still send some to hell? Before you answer, please read below. (Case/point below):

An out-of-control train is headed for a cliff. You could offer everyone <grace>, by offering (refuge/escape). Your grace (could) simply involve extending your hand, and allowing anyone to grab it. And the ones which choose not to grab it want to die. HOWEVER, before you even opt to extend your hand, you first require that each individual do (this/that/other), versus just simply grabbing your offered extended hand? How is this unconditional grace?

Getting back to your belief system, we apparently have a one-way ticket to hell. And Jesus offers his unconditional grace?

Instead of saying he gives his unconditional grace to all people, I'd instead argue he offers his conditional grace to some people.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #355]

So you do not need to be baptized, repent of sin, etc?

To receive God's grace, no. To be saved, yes.

Thus, grace is not conditional, salvation is.

According to your belief system, you are either saved, or you are not.

Thus, to be 'saved', is your answer D)?

To be saved is conditional, yes, but grace is not.

God gives his grace to all people. If we don't resist the grace, then it strengthens our faith. The stronger our faith the better our works. This is why all three are necessary for salvation, but that necessity doesn't entail that grace is conditional.

Maybe you can shed some light on your response here...? If God gives his <grace> to all people, then why does he still send some to hell? Before you answer, please read below. (Case/point below):

An out-of-control train is headed for a cliff. You could offer everyone <grace>, by offering (refuge/escape). Your grace (could) simply involve extending your hand, and allowing anyone to grab it. And the ones which choose not to grab it want to die. HOWEVER, before you even opt to extend your hand, you first require that each individual do (this/that/other), versus just simply grabbing your offered extended hand? How is this unconditional grace?

Getting back to your belief system, we apparently have a one-way ticket to hell. And Jesus offers his unconditional grace?

Instead of saying he gives his unconditional grace to all people, I'd instead argue he offers his conditional grace to some people.

You added a condition in your analogy. If the analogy were proper, it would be like this.

You are on an out-of-control train headed for a cliff. God is offering you a way off the train. You can choose to accept that way off or not.

But why would anyone not accept that way off?

Now a more accurate analogy.

You are in a house. Half of it is on fire. You need to leave the house before it burns down. Everything is blocked but a small hole with glass and metal shards that will cut you. You could crawl out of it, but it is going to be hard and painful. God offers you a pain-free way out, through the fire. This is the grace of God. There is no condition to it. God instill in you a feeling. Just go through the fire. You will be fine. You can accept that or reject it.

You will probably reject it because it seems silly to you that you can walk through fire without being harmed. It might stretch the limits of your faith. Oh shut-up brain you might say. I am not going through the fire. But the feeling persists. Walk through the fire and be unharmed. Nah, I will take my chances with the hole.

You chose to reject the grace of God, in this analogy. There was no pre-qualifying thing you had to do to earn his grace. There was no condition for you to earn his grace. His grace was the feeling you felt as clear as day. Go through the fire. You chose to ignore it.

[POI]

You added a condition in your analogy. If the analogy were proper, it would be like this.

You are on an out-of-control train headed for a cliff. God is offering you a way off the train. You can choose to accept that way off or not.

But why would anyone not accept that way off?

In accordance with your belief system, all modes of <grace> have a condition(s). That's my point. In my given scenario, all one would need do is grab the hand. But this hypothetical hand is not even offered without even more preconditions. Now to answer your analogy below.

Now a more accurate analogy.

You are in a house. Half of it is on fire. You need to leave the house before it burns down. Everything is blocked but a small hole with glass and metal shards that will cut you. You could crawl out of it, but it is going to be hard and painful. God offers you a pain-free way out, through the fire. This is the grace of God.

Please note my prior response, where I stated --> "instead of saying he gives his unconditional grace to all people, I'd instead argue he offers his conditional grace to some people." This means God has not offered me anything. God does not communicate with me at all -- (even though I tried engaging some sort of two way dialogue). He has elected to skip/ignore me. I now realized I have been speaking to myself for decades, or, God is still ignoring me. Hence, your presented condition for grace here, in your scenario, requires absolute BLIND FAITH. It would be no different than asking me to walk off a cliff and having blind faith that God will catch me. Again, complete blind faith in protection against (fires and cliffs).

There is no condition to it.

Yes, there is. Blind faith. And by blind faith, I mean the kind of blind faith required, which would also cause one to steer a plane into a building, and trust they will receive many virgins, upon their sacrificial death. (i.e.) 9/11/2001.

God instill in you a feeling. Just go through the fire. You will be fine. You can accept that or reject it.

God has instilled no feelings into me. Again, I'd instead argue he offers his conditional grace to some people.. God does not and has not asked me to walk through any metaphorical fire(s). Thus, I would need BLIND FAITH, a rather large condition. I could just as easily apply this type of BLIND FAITH towards any claimed alternative claimed god(s). Why this claimed one?

You will probably reject it because it seems silly to you that you can walk through fire without being harmed.

No. I would not reject any offer because He ain't even offering. As stated multiple times now, I'd instead argue he offers his conditional grace to some people. But apparently not me.

You chose to reject the grace of God, in this analogy. There was no pre-qualifying thing you had to do to earn his grace. There was no condition for you to earn his grace. His grace was the feeling you felt as clear as day. Go through the fire. You chose to ignore it.

Yes, there is a rather large condition. God expected I apply complete BLIND FAITH anyways. The same kind of blind faith required to fly a plane into a building and receive virgins, or walk off a cliff and blindly expect that some agency will save me. Thus, the condition(s), along with baptism, repentance of sin, and many other works/etc, FIRST requires my complete BLIND FAITH as well.

Hence, I see MUCH conditional grace here.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #363]

You contradicted my analogy. In my analogy, it is not blind faith. You feel something tell you to walked through the fire and you will be fine. In this analogy that feeling is the grace of God. You might still reject it because you think, what? I am not walking through the fire, that is insane, but the feeling persists. Do it. You will be fine. You ignore it. You reject the grace of God.

You have to stick to the analogy. You cannot say you did not feel something. That has nothing to do with my analogy. Within my analogy, the grace is given freely for you to choose or reject it.


So the question is what is the grace of God in your life personally? You had faith once, and that was by the grace of God. The world of scientism causes men to drown out the grace of God to the point they don't feel anything. Children that haven't been ruined yet by the world feel that grace.

This is why Jesus said be like children. I know all too well how the secular world causes the human mind to ignore the grace of God. I did not think it would be possible to ever believe in God again. I used to ask believers, can you imagine ever believing in Santa again? I would then say, that is how I feel about God. Once your awake, I would say, there is no going back. I was wrong.

learn to pray the rosary, which requires learning the meditations (the mysteries). Try it every day for 9 days and put as much faith as you can that God will meet you partway. The rosary takes about 20 minutes. If nothing happens, then I will say, okay, maybe it is not the will of God that you believe right now.

[brunumb]

So the question is what is the grace of God in your life personally? You had faith once, and that was by the grace of God.

Or it was childhood indoctrination

The world of scientism causes men to drown out the grace of God to the point they don't feel anything. Children that haven't been ruined yet by the world feel that grace.

Children get ruined by having religious ideas inculcated into their uncritical minds.

This is why Jesus said be like children.

Children are more likely to accept any nonsense told to them by trusted elders.

I know all too well how the secular world causes the human mind to ignore the grace of God.

Or there is no grace of God to consider at all.

I did not think it would be possible to ever believe in God again. I used to ask believers, can you imagine ever believing in Santa again? I would then say, that is how I feel about God. Once your awake, I would say, there is no going back. I was wrong.

Some people try to give up their security blanket, but when push comes to shove they just can't live without it.

learn to pray the rosary, which requires learning the meditations (the mysteries). Try it every day for 9 days and put as much faith as you can that God will meet you partway. The rosary takes about 20 minutes.

Try self-indoctrination. Leave all reason at the door and mumble mindless incantations into the air until your mind goes numb.

If nothing happens, then I will say, okay, maybe it is not the will of God that you believe right now.

Or, better still, maybe there really is no God there at all.

[POI]

Within my analogy, the grace is given freely for you to choose or reject it.

Then it would be no different then what I stated prior. Except, you waved your hand at it; stating no one would reject this offer. Meaning, all one need do is "grab the hand".

Your <grace> analogy requires more condition(s).

So the question is what is the grace of God in your life personally? You had faith once, and that was by the grace of God. The world of scientism causes men to drown out the grace of God to the point they don't feel anything. Children that haven't been ruined yet by the world feel that grace.

This is why Jesus said be like children. I know all too well how the secular world causes the human mind to ignore the grace of God. I did not think it would be possible to ever believe in God again. I used to ask believers, can you imagine ever believing in Santa again? I would then say, that is how I feel about God. Once your awake, I would say, there is no going back. I was wrong.

learn to pray the rosary, which requires learning the meditations (the mysteries). Try it every day for 9 days and put as much faith as you can that God will meet you partway. The rosary takes about 20 minutes. If nothing happens, then I will say, okay, maybe it is not the will of God that you believe right now.

Dude. I went through all of this... I even explained myself in another thread "Where's God". Did you forget already? So I guess the best you can come up with is "maybe it is not the will of God that you believe right now."

And if it is the will of god to determine who is and is not a believer, then it is not my choice anyways. Which kinda rules out free will.

[AquinasForGod]

Within my analogy, the grace is given freely for you to choose or reject it.

Then it would be no different then what I stated prior. Except, you waved your hand at it; stating no one would reject this offer. Meaning, all one need do is "grab the hand".

Your <grace> analogy requires more condition(s).

So the question is what is the grace of God in your life personally? You had faith once, and that was by the grace of God. The world of scientism causes men to drown out the grace of God to the point they don't feel anything. Children that haven't been ruined yet by the world feel that grace.

This is why Jesus said be like children. I know all too well how the secular world causes the human mind to ignore the grace of God. I did not think it would be possible to ever believe in God again. I used to ask believers, can you imagine ever believing in Santa again? I would then say, that is how I feel about God. Once your awake, I would say, there is no going back. I was wrong.

learn to pray the rosary, which requires learning the meditations (the mysteries). Try it every day for 9 days and put as much faith as you can that God will meet you partway. The rosary takes about 20 minutes. If nothing happens, then I will say, okay, maybe it is not the will of God that you believe right now.

Dude. I went through all of this... I even explained myself in another thread "Where's God". Did you forget already? So I guess the best you can come up with is "maybe it is not the will of God that you believe right now."

And if it is the will of god to determine who is and is not a believer, then it is not my choice anyways. Which kinda rules out free will.

But you haven't prayed the Rosary for 9 days yet. Muster up as much faith as you can and try it. Miss no day. If you have any questions on how to do the rosary, I can help. Do you have enough faith that God might be real? Is there at least a 1% chance God is real? If so, can you muster the faith to believe God will meet you part way if you pray the rosary for 9 days?

Let it count as a testimony for or against the power of God through the Rosary? Are you willing to try it? You will have to say each word with trying to believe them.

I never thought the Rosary would do anything for me, yet it did. Are you willing to try this Rosary test?

[POI]

Within my analogy, the grace is given freely for you to choose or reject it.

Then it would be no different then what I stated prior. Except, you waved your hand at it; stating no one would reject this offer. Meaning, all one need do is "grab the hand".

Your <grace> analogy requires more condition(s).

So the question is what is the grace of God in your life personally? You had faith once, and that was by the grace of God. The world of scientism causes men to drown out the grace of God to the point they don't feel anything. Children that haven't been ruined yet by the world feel that grace.

This is why Jesus said be like children. I know all too well how the secular world causes the human mind to ignore the grace of God. I did not think it would be possible to ever believe in God again. I used to ask believers, can you imagine ever believing in Santa again? I would then say, that is how I feel about God. Once your awake, I would say, there is no going back. I was wrong.

learn to pray the rosary, which requires learning the meditations (the mysteries). Try it every day for 9 days and put as much faith as you can that God will meet you partway. The rosary takes about 20 minutes. If nothing happens, then I will say, okay, maybe it is not the will of God that you believe right now.

Dude. I went through all of this... I even explained myself in another thread "Where's God". Did you forget already? So I guess the best you can come up with is "maybe it is not the will of God that you believe right now."

And if it is the will of god to determine who is and is not a believer, then it is not my choice anyways. Which kinda rules out free will.

But you haven't prayed the Rosary for 9 days yet. Muster up as much faith as you can and try it. Miss no day. If you have any questions on how to do the rosary, I can help. Do you have enough faith that God might be real? Is there at least a 1% chance God is real? If so, can you muster the faith to believe God will meet you part way if you pray the rosary for 9 days?

Let it count as a testimony for or against the power of God through the Rosary? Are you willing to try it? You will have to say each word with trying to believe them.

I never thought the Rosary would do anything for me, yet it did. Are you willing to try this Rosary test?

It sounds like you did forget what I wrote. Interesting.

[AquinasForGod]

Within my analogy, the grace is given freely for you to choose or reject it.

Then it would be no different then what I stated prior. Except, you waved your hand at it; stating no one would reject this offer. Meaning, all one need do is "grab the hand".

Your <grace> analogy requires more condition(s).

So the question is what is the grace of God in your life personally? You had faith once, and that was by the grace of God. The world of scientism causes men to drown out the grace of God to the point they don't feel anything. Children that haven't been ruined yet by the world feel that grace.

This is why Jesus said be like children. I know all too well how the secular world causes the human mind to ignore the grace of God. I did not think it would be possible to ever believe in God again. I used to ask believers, can you imagine ever believing in Santa again? I would then say, that is how I feel about God. Once your awake, I would say, there is no going back. I was wrong.

learn to pray the rosary, which requires learning the meditations (the mysteries). Try it every day for 9 days and put as much faith as you can that God will meet you partway. The rosary takes about 20 minutes. If nothing happens, then I will say, okay, maybe it is not the will of God that you believe right now.

Dude. I went through all of this... I even explained myself in another thread "Where's God". Did you forget already? So I guess the best you can come up with is "maybe it is not the will of God that you believe right now."

And if it is the will of god to determine who is and is not a believer, then it is not my choice anyways. Which kinda rules out free will.

But you haven't prayed the Rosary for 9 days yet. Muster up as much faith as you can and try it. Miss no day. If you have any questions on how to do the rosary, I can help. Do you have enough faith that God might be real? Is there at least a 1% chance God is real? If so, can you muster the faith to believe God will meet you part way if you pray the rosary for 9 days?

Let it count as a testimony for or against the power of God through the Rosary? Are you willing to try it? You will have to say each word with trying to believe them.

I never thought the Rosary would do anything for me, yet it did. Are you willing to try this Rosary test?

It sounds like you did forget what I wrote. Interesting.

I am asking if you are willing to do it now. Rosary for 9 days in a row. You are being offered the chance to experience God. Do you take it or reject it?

[POI]

I am asking if you are willing to do it now. Rosary for 9 days in a row. You are being offered the chance to experience God. Do you take it or reject it?

Did you completely forget my response to you, here? --> (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40313&start=50). I tried every which way, for years/decades. As you also stated, maybe God does not want me to believe in him (yet). And if this is the case, then I could use your 'method' for 9 days, 18 days, 36 days, and it will do nothing....

Further, I wasn't aware this is the way in which God contacts humans? Why are so many receiving contact from God, while NOT using your method at all? Quite frankly, I have yet to hear of anyone who has ever used your particular method.... Did god give you these specific instructions, or other? Just curious...