The Wrong Thing for the Right Reason?

[Purple Knight]

Question for Debate: What is the proper interpretation of, "He did the wrong thing, but for the right reason," through the lens of the Christian religion?

A good example is that many people believe lying is wrong but are incredibly eager to excuse someone if they have even the slightest reason for doing it, so much so that "you told a lie, that was wrong," if it comes from such people, is ultimately more a statement about someone's lack of ability to make convincing and clever excuses, than anything to do with actually having told the lie.

I understand that Christians aren't supposed to be judgmental of anyone, but I don't think anyone can avoid just the part of judgment where you have a well-formed view of whether what somebody did was wrong or not. I don't think you can proceed toward being a good person without that.

[bjs1]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]

I don’t know if there is a single “Christian” view of this, but I can give you my take:

To be a disciple of Jesus Christ is less about a set of rules and more about the heart. From this perspective love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, and self-control are all good things, and actions that come from these motivations are inherently good.

On the other hand, hatred, cruelty, treachery, selfishness, laziness, hypocrisy and arrogance are all wrong. Actions which come from these motivations are wrong.

So there is no such things a doing the wrong thing for the right reason. Lying is wrong 99,999 times out of 100,000. However, there are extreme cases – such as lying to save an innocent person’s life – when lying is the right thing to do. I don’t think that I have ever been in that extreme situation, but I recognize that it is possible.

This is also a part of the reason why Christians are told not to judge others. We don’t know their motivations. The question is not, “Is it right for him to lie in his situation?” The question is, “Is it right for me to lie in my current situation?”

[Purple Knight]

This is also a part of the reason why Christians are told not to judge others. We don’t know their motivations. The question is not, “Is it right for him to lie in his situation?” The question is, “Is it right for me to lie in my current situation?”

This at least makes sense, because I can still have and use a knowledge of right and wrong I am required to have and use.

For example, let's say I have the gay inclination and I see fifteen men lying on the ground having an orgy, which in context of what the Bible says is wrong. They ask me to join them. Now, if I abdicate any sort of judgment whatsoever, without cognitive dissonance I simply accept the invitation because I am not cognizant of the fact that what they are doing is wrong. If I am expected to say no, I have to have that understanding: They are doing something wrong and I should not join them. I can be humble about that understanding and accept the possibility that I may be wrong about what's going on somehow, but I can't just not see the wrongness of the act.

So there is no such things a doing the wrong thing for the right reason. Lying is wrong 99,999 times out of 100,000. However, there are extreme cases – such as lying to save an innocent person’s life – when lying is the right thing to do. I don’t think that I have ever been in that extreme situation, but I recognize that it is possible.

I have trouble with this, because once you say it's okay to save a person's life, why is it not okay to save a stubbed toe or a pulled hair? Once you say that harm weighs into it and the prohibition against lying loses, doesn't it then lose to any sort of harm?

If I can't defend telling the truth in the classic situation where someone is hiding Jews in their attic and a Nazi is asking after them, then I don't see how I can defend telling the truth in any situation where it will cause anything bad to happen. Especially if people are always lying, being found out, and then being praised because they did it for some good or to prevent some harm.

I catch flak all the time for telling the truth. But I only tell the truth because I can't get away with lying all the time and justifying it like everyone else does.

[Shem Yoshi]

Question for Debate: What is the proper interpretation of, "He did the wrong thing, but for the right reason," through the lens of the Christian religion?

A good example is that many people believe lying is wrong but are incredibly eager to excuse someone if they have even the slightest reason for doing it, so much so that "you told a lie, that was wrong," if it comes from such people, is ultimately more a statement about someone's lack of ability to make convincing and clever excuses, than anything to do with actually having told the lie.

I understand that Christians aren't supposed to be judgmental of anyone, but I don't think anyone can avoid just the part of judgment where you have a well-formed view of whether what somebody did was wrong or not. I don't think you can proceed toward being a good person without that.

I just want to through this proverbs out there

"30 Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry; 31 But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; he shall give all the substance of his house.".. Like a poor man stealing food.

However i think the topic in question is starting to question is it right to do something that is wrong, if that wrong is actually right.

The truth is, as a Christian I am coming to understand I know nothing. You bring up the idea of judging someone, which Jesus said "Dont judge", however Jesus also said "let no man deceive you"... I suppose you could say if a pharisee wanted you to believe him and follow him, Jesus would say dont follow him he is a hypocrite, like a blind leading the blind in a ditch.

I have a hard time establishing hard ethical truths... I believe you ought to "love your enemy" (Jesus), but also i believe you ought to "hate that which is evil" (Solomon). You ought to "shout the truth from the roof tops" (Jesus), but "not throw your pearls to swine" (Jesus).

The truth is, I believe as a Christian I have been freed to live in spirit (John 8:32), and that "there is a time and place for everything" (Solomon). I personally dont have a solid understanding of doing the "wrong thing for the right reason", I dont fully understand what the right thing is. Scripture says "no one understands" (Romans 3:11), and that "even our righteous deed are as filthy rags to God" (Isaiah).

I just have to put faith that God understands and is with me and will help me.

[bjs1]

So there is no such things a doing the wrong thing for the right reason. Lying is wrong 99,999 times out of 100,000. However, there are extreme cases – such as lying to save an innocent person’s life – when lying is the right thing to do. I don’t think that I have ever been in that extreme situation, but I recognize that it is possible.

I have trouble with this, because once you say it's okay to save a person's life, why is it not okay to save a stubbed toe or a pulled hair? Once you say that harm weighs into it and the prohibition against lying loses, doesn't it then lose to any sort of harm?

I'm not sure I follow. Can you describe the situation in which lying would prevent a stubbed toe?

[Shem Yoshi]

[Replying to bjs1 in post #5]


I have actually thought about this before. What if you lie and good comes by it? Say you lie to a friend about a surprise party... Or something..

Say you lie to prevent a friend from doing something evil?

I use to be so keen to tell the truth, i would be very detailed to people making sure they understood things i was saying. I guess i am just an honest person, but i began to wonder if I could say something that wasnt true just to get on with my life.

In Exodus 20 the comandment is this "16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor."

Notice it says "against your neighbor"... Jesus said Love your neighbor as yourself, or treat other as you want to be treated.

Lying might not be the issue here, the issue might be what exactly you are doing with your words and how they effect people.

[TRANSPONDER]

I suspect that it would unpuzzle a lot of us if we accepted that there are many grey areas, exceptions and arguable points about human morals and semantics and the debate is to to be welcomed rather than treated like a tax hike because someone told us it ought to be an objective Universal law.

This is why secular - humanist morals and ethics is far better than Holy Books that try to impose unchangeable moral rules on us but...as is clear from the excellent posts above...can't.

[Purple Knight]

So there is no such things a doing the wrong thing for the right reason. Lying is wrong 99,999 times out of 100,000. However, there are extreme cases – such as lying to save an innocent person’s life – when lying is the right thing to do. I don’t think that I have ever been in that extreme situation, but I recognize that it is possible.

I have trouble with this, because once you say it's okay to save a person's life, why is it not okay to save a stubbed toe or a pulled hair? Once you say that harm weighs into it and the prohibition against lying loses, doesn't it then lose to any sort of harm?

I'm not sure I follow. Can you describe the situation in which lying would prevent a stubbed toe?

I can't think of one. But suppose you could? Or suppose it's just to prevent sadness, like telling someone they don't look fat? If lying is okay to prevent a large harm, why not a small harm?

I suspect that it would unpuzzle a lot of us if we accepted that there are many grey areas, exceptions and arguable points about human morals and semantics and the debate is to to be welcomed rather than treated like a tax hike because someone told us it ought to be an objective Universal law.

This is why secular - humanist morals and ethics is far better than Holy Books that try to impose unchangeable moral rules on us but...as is clear from the excellent posts above...can't.

It only sucks for those of us who don't have the raw charisma to justify anything they do. Every grey area, for me, is something someone else may do and I may not.

For example, I don't lie because I can't get away with it. And it's a double whammy because then I often get in trouble for not lying when I should have. And I can't tell these bloody cretins that the reason I don't lie is that if I had lied, they'd be standing there insisting I did something wrong, and I wouldn't be able to weasel out like everyone else can.

Lying might not be the issue here, the issue might be what exactly you are doing with your words and how they affect people.

This might be right but it gets incredibly Gordian knotty when you're dealing with people lying affects negatively because they believe lying to them is wrong.

[bjs1]

[Replying to Shem Yoshi in post #6]

I think there are situation where lying is acceptable. Lying to get someone to a surprise party in their honor comes from a place of love for that person, and I would not consider it wrong.

To take another example, no one expects a football coach to tell the opposing coach what play his team will run next. Technically this is a lie of omission, but a reasonable person could see that it was done out of a sense of fair play and fun, not out of malice.

On other hand, I fear that lying in order to get on with my life might have more to do with selfishness than with love for the other person. It could be right to let something go because pressing my point upon another person might come from arrogance or the need to prove myself right. Lying so that I don’t have to deal with someone who is bothering me does not seem to come from love.

I agree that the ninth commandment is not a condemnation of all lies, but a specific kind of lie. There are times when it is right to be less than absolutely honest. There is never a time when bearing false testimony against my neighbor is right.

[bjs1]

I can't think of one. But suppose you could? Or suppose it's just to prevent sadness, like telling someone they don't look fat? If lying is okay to prevent a large harm, why not a small harm?

There is a difference between lying to prevent physical harm and lying to prevent emotional harm. In fact, such lying rarely has to do with the other person’s good. A lie to prevent emotional harm, like telling someone they don’t look fat, is probably more about saving myself from an awkward situation. It is a selfish lie.

At the same time people can use radical honesty as an excuse for cruelty. Saying, “You’re fat and that makes you ugly,” does not come from love. Any reasonable person can find ways to be both honest and kind.