Should I become an atheist and why?

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Wootah
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Should I become an atheist and why?

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Post by Wootah »

Should I become an atheist and why?

What are the benefits, practices, beliefs? Any good conversion stories?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Should I become an atheist and why?

Post #101

Post by Shem Yoshi »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:04 am
But let us suppose there really is a God. You can call him Jesus or YHVH or whatever you want. So, what meaning do you have then? Whatever your God says? That is the trouble. You believe in God and then what? What meaning do you derive? What do you have besides the 'meaning' your God tells you to have?

Belief is God is no more than your own abdication of the quest for meaning.

Finding God does not add meaning unless you say "God IS meaning." This is circular. Therefore belief in God adds nothing to the quest for meaning. It simply gives it a label.

I repeat, Belief is God is no more than an abdication of your personal quest for meaning.
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I would also like to respond to you latter part of your argument...

You say "let us suppose there really is a God."..
Ok lets do that.

You then say:
"You can call him Jesus or YHVH or whatever you want. So, what meaning do you have then? Whatever your God says? That is the trouble. You believe in God and then what? What meaning do you derive? What do you have besides the 'meaning' your God tells you to have?"

I think you are still focusing on some kind of personal subject meaning. A humans understanding of what God wants of them... However if God exists, God is beyond anyone's personal understanding of meaning. And the meaning of existance could rest on God's understanding rather then a person.

You say
"Belief [in] God is no more than an abdication of your personal quest for meaning."

I personally believe all humans experience things that are meaningful to them regardless what they believe. The subject in question is is there any objective grounds for establishing meaning, or truth.... All humans have brain fizz, and experience things, and derive meaning for there lives... The question is, which brain fizz is right and which brain fizz is wrong?

But if God exists, truth doesnt come down to a humans perception, but exists beyond a humans brain fizz, and God would be able to establish people in His truth...
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Re: Should I become an atheist and why?

Post #102

Post by Purple Knight »

Shem Yoshi wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:31 amThe subject in question is is there any objective grounds for establishing meaning, or truth.... All humans have brain fizz, and experience things, and derive meaning for there lives... The question is, which brain fizz is right and which brain fizz is wrong?
Exactly. That's the very thing, right there.
Diogenes wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:04 amI repeat, Belief is God is no more than an abdication of your personal quest for meaning.
Without a master who is master of all, what there won't be is objective meaning. My meaning will be discovered by me and it might be different to the one discovered by you.

Why people fear this, I think, has a lot to do with what we can say about the moral value of someone's actions when we don't have the objective nature of the moral world as a fallback. And don't get me wrong, this is not some denouncement of busybodies... this actually merits fear. It's a fear I deal with every day because I don't have any real reason to say that somebody who chops off my leg (or worse) is wrong to have done so. The best I can do is try to get people to admit they already believe it is wrong, and when they've actually done it, they never will. They will have some excuse, some reason that what they did is justified.

Where I sit as an atheist is that if someone tells me something I am doing is wrong, I have to acquiesce and quit it immediately. But if someone does something horrible to me, I got nothin'. I would prefer some god existed and bequeathed us with universal morality. I would even prefer the Jewish God who will kill me in cold blood if I hurt his People, and happily be sold into slavery. Because then, even then, some other slave knocks my teeth out and I get a tooth for a tooth. As it stands I cower in fear of that flag people raise, that dreaded flag of morality, because they raise it and I just have to flee. Half the time it's other atheists. But I can't even tell them because they think morality is objective too, and that gives them use of that flag, which I don't have.

But I also would prefer to be Isekai'd to Narnia and meet Aslan. What I prefer does not dictate reality.

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Re: Should I become an atheist and why?

Post #103

Post by Shem Yoshi »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:37 am Where I sit as an atheist is that if someone tells me something I am doing is wrong, I have to acquiesce and quit it immediately.
I would have to say it is a well thought out and honest response from Purple Knight.

And i would have to point out, with the quote i isolated above, this helps reflect morality of Paul who said "it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble" (Romans 14:20). Paul understood that he was freed by his faith in Christ, and that he could (for example) eat any food he wanted, which was against Jewish law. But he also noted that if any brother took offense to it, it would be better for him to not eat.

"21 It is good not to ... do anything that causes your brother to stumble." (Romans 14:21)

However there is things Paul did that offended many many people, and that was proclaiming the Gospel. Paul would not be silenced on this matter, because he knew this was the right thing to do, in fact he said:

"For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!"

So although it is good to not offend someone, it is also necessary to stand up for what is right, like liberty, human rights, equality, no matter the cost.

I agree with J F K's quote when he said "we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and success of liberty."

It is necessary to go against bad or evil things.
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Re: Should I become an atheist and why?

Post #104

Post by Diogenes »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:37 amI would prefer some god existed and bequeathed us with universal morality.

This is sad. We do not need a 'God' to tell us some universal morality. We already have it. We have evolved to believe in a universal morality. This has happened thru natural selection. Social species that survived did so because cooperation enabled them to survive better than species that did not cooperate. Even animals have morality. This has been amply demonstrated. I have published here Frans De Waal's TED talk many times. You can ignore the evidence or evaluate it. But don't bother to yak away unless you first view this entertaining lecture.
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Re: Should I become an atheist and why?

Post #105

Post by William »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:04 am
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:37 amI would prefer some god existed and bequeathed us with universal morality.

This is sad. We do not need a 'God' to tell us some universal morality. We already have it. We have evolved to believe in a universal morality. This has happened thru natural selection. Social species that survived did so because cooperation enabled them to survive better than species that did not cooperate. Even animals have morality. This has been amply demonstrated. I have published here Frans De Waal's TED talk many times. You can ignore the evidence or evaluate it. But don't bother to yak away unless you first view this entertaining lecture.
I think PK has a point re morality. I have not watched the video as yet, but will do.
My current thoughts are also on intelligent animals behaving immorally. Dolphins pack raping females. Orca killing whales just to eat the tongues of their victims. The morals may benefit the social construct of the specie, but apparently, so do the immoral behavior's.

If evolution provides the opportunity for morals to develop in sentient species, are we able to see evidence of this in the actions of these sentient sea-critters? Shouldn't we be able to see evidence of understanding incorrect behavior's and evidence of morality replacing immorality, if that were the case?

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Re: Should I become an atheist and why?

Post #106

Post by brunumb »

Shem Yoshi wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:43 pm But if scientific materialism is true, and the physical world is all there is, and humans consciousness is nothing more then a brain fizzing with chemicals... Then what does it matter what you believe?
A lot, if it means demonising certain groups of people, restricting their human rights, encouraging hate and even the killing of some people. Religious belief is not as benign as you might like to think it is. For example, hop across to Nigeria where believers are killing people believed to be witches. Maybe flying planes into buildings because your god says it's a good thing doesn't really matter.

Even if we are just brains fizzing with chemicals (enough already) we are still thinking, feeling and caring beings who deserve to live out whatever life we have in the best way possible.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Should I become an atheist and why?

Post #107

Post by Clownboat »

Shem Yoshi wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:43 pm
Wootah wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:20 pm Should I become an atheist and why?

What are the benefits, practices, beliefs? Any good conversion stories?
It really doesnt matter... If atheism is true, and scientific materialism is true, nothing really matters. "let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die" (1 Corinthians 15:32).

Personally you would be better off becoming a Greco-Roman Pagan, worshiping the epic dramas of life. Atheism doesn't have much to offer except a world view of scientific materialism...

But if scientific materialism is true, and the physical world is all there is, and humans consciousness is nothing more then a brain fizzing with chemicals... Then what does it matter what you believe?

If the truth we experience is nothing more then a brain fizz, then lets take Mountain dew and Dr pepper, shake them up and let them fizz... Which one is better? Mountain Dew or Dr. Pepper?
It seems that you don't care if you believe in true things or not. Please stop projecting that on to the rest of us. Many of us care that what we believe is true, therefore it matters to us.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

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If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Should I become an atheist and why?

Post #108

Post by Shem Yoshi »

brunumb wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:46 am
Shem Yoshi wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:43 pm But if scientific materialism is true, and the physical world is all there is, and humans consciousness is nothing more then a brain fizzing with chemicals... Then what does it matter what you believe?
A lot, if it means demonising certain groups of people, restricting their human rights, encouraging hate and even the killing of some people. Religious belief is not as benign as you might like to think it is. For example, hop across to Nigeria where believers are killing people believed to be witches. Maybe flying planes into buildings because your god says it's a good thing doesn't really matter.

Even if we are just brains fizzing with chemicals (enough already) we are still thinking, feeling and caring beings who deserve to live out whatever life we have in the best way possible.
For clarification... Do you believe abortion is ok?
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Re: Should I become an atheist and why?

Post #109

Post by Shem Yoshi »

Clownboat wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:11 am
Shem Yoshi wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:43 pm
Wootah wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:20 pm Should I become an atheist and why?

What are the benefits, practices, beliefs? Any good conversion stories?
It really doesnt matter... If atheism is true, and scientific materialism is true, nothing really matters. "let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die" (1 Corinthians 15:32).

Personally you would be better off becoming a Greco-Roman Pagan, worshiping the epic dramas of life. Atheism doesn't have much to offer except a world view of scientific materialism...

But if scientific materialism is true, and the physical world is all there is, and humans consciousness is nothing more then a brain fizzing with chemicals... Then what does it matter what you believe?

If the truth we experience is nothing more then a brain fizz, then lets take Mountain dew and Dr pepper, shake them up and let them fizz... Which one is better? Mountain Dew or Dr. Pepper?
It seems that you don't care if you believe in true things or not. Please stop projecting that on to the rest of us. Many of us care that what we believe is true, therefore it matters to us.
I think the question stands. How do you establish truth? Here you are appealing to truth, and in this thread people are appealing to morality, but how do you ground such ideas? Especially if materialism is true, saying the supernatural doesnt exist and the physical world is all there is...

You can tell me to stop asking the question, but that doesnt answer the question.
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Re: Should I become an atheist and why?

Post #110

Post by Clownboat »

Shem Yoshi wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:46 am I think the question stands.
It wasn't a question though, it was a statement.
Copy/paste: "It really doesnt matter... If atheism is true, and scientific materialism is true, nothing really matters."

Things do matter to the rest of us.
How do you establish truth?
That would depend on the claim being made.
Here you are appealing to truth, and in this thread people are appealing to morality, but how do you ground such ideas?

Again, depends on the question.
I have not been appealing to truth nor morality. I have simply asked you to stop projecting your feelings of 'nothing really matters' on to the rest of us.
Especially if materialism is true, saying the supernatural doesnt exist and the physical world is all there is...

People ground ideas without the appeal to the supernatural all the time. How again would likely depend on what is being discussed.
You can tell me to stop asking the question, but that doesnt answer the question.
No one asked you to stop asking questions. I do request that you stop projecting though.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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