re Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma - Are "Agnostic Atheists" Really Atheists?

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re Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma - Are "Agnostic Atheists" Really Atheists?

Post #1

Post by William »

There is an argument along the lines that "Atheists can believe in ghosts et al, without believing in "GOD(s)" {SOURCE ARTICLE}.

However, when examining the source article what we find is that the study is done with individuals "Self Declaring to being atheists" and that "agnostic atheists" appear to be most affected by the "irrational thinking of the religious"
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re Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma - Q: Are "Agnostic Atheists" Really Atheists?

My own position on the question, is Agnostic Neutral and therefore I do not have any beliefs re such things as ghosts and spirits, astrology, reincarnation, or think that some people have magical powers, that the article says atheist's can and do have belief in.
Last edited by William on Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: re Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma - Are "Agnostic Atheists" Really Atheists?

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Post by William »

I ask myself: "Since Agnostic Atheists do have such beliefs, can they be considered to be 'atheists' simply because they don't specifically believe in GODs but do believe in spirits and the other things mentioned, or might it be a case of them not understanding what an atheist is because of their being agnostic about all those things mentioned, but NOT agnostic about the question of GOD?"

I think the answer is that they self-declare to being 'atheists' but in actuality, they are "agnostic atheists" and in that, are influenced by those things aforementioned and coming from theistic notions, rather than atheistic notions.

Principle this is why I do not call myself an agnostic atheist because I do not hold beliefs about those things mentioned, and nor do I lack belief in there being a GOD or God or G-D or god or gods...I am Neutral in regard to those things, as I think much more examination and study is still required before I can declare one way or another.

Agnostic Neutral is a less confusing position to hold than Agnostic Atheist, and I don't see how one can be both Agnostic and Atheist at the same time, without the confusion naturally manifesting itself into the real world.

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Re: re Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma - Are "Agnostic Atheists" Really Atheists?

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Post by PolytheistWitch »

There are spiritual paths where an afterlife and other occult/ supernatural practices are believed in but not deity. Those people are technically atheist. These range from Earth based Asian religions like Taoism to witchcraft, a practice.

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Re: re Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma - Are "Agnostic Atheists" Really Atheists?

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Post by Davado »

What do you call a man who believes the Bible true but rejects it. I don't like God and want no part of him or his absurd salvation. ,What am I called ?

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Re: re Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma - Are "Agnostic Atheists" Really Atheists?

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Post by Davado »

And what if heaven is a nightmare ?
Given gods character it wouldn't surprise me.
We only have his word to go on Afterall.
And God lies like a lawyer .Technical truth but a lie in spirit

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Re: re Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma - Are "Agnostic Atheists" Really Atheists?

Post #6

Post by William »

PolytheistWitch wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:43 pm There are spiritual paths where an afterlife and other occult/ supernatural practices are believed in but not deity. Those people are technically atheist. These range from Earth based Asian religions like Taoism to witchcraft, a practice.
Is being 'technically atheist' really being atheist? According to the source-article, they are irrational thinkers...conflating the two positions has brought with it, confusion as to what being atheist actually is. The article does not refer to these as just being atheist...what position is referring to these as 'irrational thinkers'? What is/are the positions of the person/persons who devised the study and interpreted the data the study produced that they base their findings on what they think of as 'rational thinking'?

It is heavily bias re that. Where is the bias coming from? The atheist position or one of the other related positions?

Re the 'strictly speaking' of being "technically atheist" a baby technically qualifies as being an atheist.

So does an AI.

Even me, albeit that my position is Agnostic Neutral I can be referred to as an "atheist".

Therefore, in order to avoid confusion and disingenuity, I think that the following is appropriate.


Strict definitions and labels may be used to describe a particular phenomenon, but it's important to understand that these labels are often not absolute and can vary depending on context, interpretation, and personal beliefs. In the case of a baby and adult being labeled as "atheist", the label may apply differently to each, as a baby lacks the capacity for forming beliefs while an adult has developed their own views on the existence of gods or deities. It is important to acknowledge and respect the complexities and nuances of labels and definitions, rather than assuming a strict or absolute interpretation. ...

...and regarding folk who call themselves atheists but believe in ghost et al, again in order to avoid confusion and disingenuity, I think that the following is appropriate.

If someone begins to believe in supernatural phenomena like ghosts, they are no longer strictly an atheist, as they now hold a belief in something beyond the natural world. Based on the strict definition of atheism as the lack of belief in gods or deities, if someone holds a belief in something beyond the natural world, they would no longer be considered as strictly speaking, an atheist. They would be considered as being in the domain of theistic thinking, rather than atheistic thinking.

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Re: re Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma - Are "Agnostic Atheists" Really Atheists?

Post #7

Post by PolytheistWitch »

[Replying to William in post #6]

You don't get to decide someone's beliefs or labels. Believing in ghosts but not gods is atheism. Whether atheists want them in the club or not.

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Re: re Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma - Are "Agnostic Atheists" Really Atheists?

Post #8

Post by William »

PolytheistWitch wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:11 am [Replying to William in post #6]

You don't get to decide someone's beliefs or labels. Believing in ghosts but not gods is atheism. Whether atheists want them in the club or not.
It is not a case of getting to decide someone's beliefs or labels. That is why I wrote:

Strict definitions and labels may be used to describe a particular phenomenon, but it's important to understand that these labels are often not absolute and can vary depending on context, interpretation, and personal beliefs.

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Re: re Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma - Are "Agnostic Atheists" Really Atheists?

Post #9

Post by Clownboat »

William wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:26 pm There is an argument along the lines that "Atheists can believe in ghosts et al, without believing in "GOD(s)" {SOURCE ARTICLE}.

However, when examining the source article what we find is that the study is done with individuals "Self Declaring to being atheists" and that "agnostic atheists" appear to be most affected by the "irrational thinking of the religious"
_________________________________________

re Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma - Q: Are "Agnostic Atheists" Really Atheists?

My own position on the question, is Agnostic Neutral and therefore I do not have any beliefs re such things as ghosts and spirits, astrology, reincarnation, or think that some people have magical powers, that the article says atheist's can and do have belief in.
I have an atheist friend of mine that believes in ghosts.
Therefore, atheists can and some even do believe in ghosts. It really is that simple.

As far as the OP goes... If a person believes in 1 god or more, they are a theist. If they believe in 0 gods, but possibly in the existence of ghosts, they are a-theists. Meaning, without theism.

Readers, make sense of this as you can:
William Copy/paste: "The evidence you have given to argue that atheism can allow folk to still believe in Ghosts et al and call themselves 'atheists' has only shown that meds are required and the Ghosts et al are then considered to not being Ghosts et al, and thus Ghosts et al are NOT believed by atheist to being real."

Yup, the ghosts the atheists believe to be ghosts are not ghosts so atheists cannot believe in ghosts, even the ones that believe in ghosts while not taking meds. :shock:
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Re: re Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma - Are "Agnostic Atheists" Really Atheists?

Post #10

Post by Clownboat »

William wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:56 am
PolytheistWitch wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:11 am [Replying to William in post #6]

You don't get to decide someone's beliefs or labels. Believing in ghosts but not gods is atheism. Whether atheists want them in the club or not.
It is not a case of getting to decide someone's beliefs or labels.
Then cease and desists. A-theists = without-theism.
What kind of atheists you think yourself to be does not affect that atheists don't hold to any form of theism. They will have other beliefs and these beliefs may or may not include ghosts or the paranormal.

I'm truly flaberghasted as to why you continue to battle this self evident description of what an atheist is.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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