#2 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of repentance

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#2 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of repentance

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

Hi all,

I want to create a mini-series over time that can discuss/explore/debate the practical benefits of Christianity. I am trying in this series to make Christianity make sense to my fellow forum goers and why thinking a certain way could help them.

In this thread, I want to discuss: the practical benefits of repentance.

For me, repentance has been the single biggest benefit of Christianity to me. At the trivial level I take on tasks and after completing them allow myself to be critiqued and think about how to do them better. Things I had failed at, long ago, like playing an instrument, I have started again. I have been able to challenge my identity and who I am and been able to change that identity because every time I fail I know I can repent whereas I was not humble enough without Christianity to go back and make these changes. Without a loving father, that wants me to change, without a son that shows me the way, without a spirit helping me to take the steps required - I don't think I ever would have.

Does the Christian idea of repentance have practical benefits? Does anyone want to discuss the downsides of repentance?

nb:
1- Please consider strong manning Christianity and the topic concept if you intend to debate.
2- please argue with reasons
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: #2 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of repentance

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

While I have already made an equivalent response to (potential) why you -wall should become Christians, there is another point here - that Repentance can go sour. I know that the idea behind it is to 'Go and sin no more'.But it can so easily become exhibition paying off sin and being forgiven and going back to it, rinse and repeat.

The problem is (at least potentially) being forgiven by Jesus so no amends or correction has to be done. I don't need to follow the trail of forged notes to the faker of forgiving yourself without accountability though religion to the perniciously familiar 'religion puts us above the law', but secularism, with its' bonnet - mascot of atheism, is driven by the engine of 'we are on our own, we are accountable, we cannot offload our problems onto anyone else'.

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Re: #2 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of repentance

Post #3

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Wootah wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:09 am Does the Christian idea of repentance have practical benefits?
Only to folks who think there's a god fretting what it is they do.

To others, repentance is simply a realization our actions have consequences.
Does anyone want to discuss the downsides of repentance?
Allowing the mind to succumb to irrational belif in magical, mythical men.

Might as well fret what the Martians have to think.
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Re: #2 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of repentance

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Post by The Tanager »

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]

How would you define "repentance" in general? Also, do you think "Christian repentance" is different than a general notion of repentance? If so, how?

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Re: #2 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of repentance

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Post by Wootah »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:50 am While I have already made an equivalent response to (potential) why you -wall should become Christians, there is another point here - that Repentance can go sour. I know that the idea behind it is to 'Go and sin no more'.But it can so easily become exhibition paying off sin and being forgiven and going back to it, rinse and repeat.

The problem is (at least potentially) being forgiven by Jesus so no amends or correction has to be done. I don't need to follow the trail of forged notes to the faker of forgiving yourself without accountability though religion to the perniciously familiar 'religion puts us above the law', but secularism, with its' bonnet - mascot of atheism, is driven by the engine of 'we are on our own, we are accountable, we cannot offload our problems onto anyone else'.
I can agree that fake repentance is an issue, but the word fake indicates it never happened. However, I also know that on many issues (even though I repented and changed) there was and is more growth to go.

Secularism doesn't appear to my mind to have a monopoly on individual responsibility. For me when I went down that road I did not end up as an Ann Randian figure of individual responsibility. I just ended up depressed, inadequate and nihilistic. Results may differ but I think that the general trend supports the direction I went and I think those that don't go in that direction aren't relying on secularism or atheism but have other fundamentals like a job or family keeping them going.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: #2 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of repentance

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Post by Wootah »

The Tanager wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:42 am [Replying to Wootah in post #1]

How would you define "repentance" in general? Also, do you think "Christian repentance" is different than a general notion of repentance? If so, how?
I think there is general secular repentance. I think it needs a standard to compare against. I behaved this way, I can see a better way or at least I know that way didn't get me the result I wanted, I change towards another standard.

In Christianity, I have the model of Jesus to turn towards. An element of becoming a Christian requires being willing to let God be God and you be you. Allow yourself to be inadequate a sinner and then you can better see the areas of life to transform to be more like Christ.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: #2 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of repentance

Post #7

Post by Wootah »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:38 am
Wootah wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:09 am Does the Christian idea of repentance have practical benefits?
Only to folks who think there's a god fretting what it is they do.

To others, repentance is simply a realization our actions have consequences.
Does anyone want to discuss the downsides of repentance?
Allowing the mind to succumb to irrational belif in magical, mythical men.

Might as well fret what the Martians have to think.
I think that is an issue for all people. To be honest I think we mostly live in the past and in fantasy and so our minds are full of magical mythical men (usually ourselves).
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: #2 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of repentance

Post #8

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Wootah wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:50 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:38 am
Wootah wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:09 am Does the Christian idea of repentance have practical benefits?
Only to folks who think there's a god fretting what it is they do.

To others, repentance is simply a realization our actions have consequences.
Does anyone want to discuss the downsides of repentance?
Allowing the mind to succumb to irrational belif in magical, mythical men.

Might as well fret what the Martians have to think.
I think that is an issue for all people. To be honest I think we mostly live in the past and in fantasy and so our minds are full of magical mythical men (usually ourselves).
Projection is not a valid argument.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: #2 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of repentance

Post #9

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Wootah wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:45 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:50 am While I have already made an equivalent response to (potential) why you -wall should become Christians, there is another point here - that Repentance can go sour. I know that the idea behind it is to 'Go and sin no more'.But it can so easily become exhibition paying off sin and being forgiven and going back to it, rinse and repeat.

The problem is (at least potentially) being forgiven by Jesus so no amends or correction has to be done. I don't need to follow the trail of forged notes to the faker of forgiving yourself without accountability though religion to the perniciously familiar 'religion puts us above the law', but secularism, with its' bonnet - mascot of atheism, is driven by the engine of 'we are on our own, we are accountable, we cannot offload our problems onto anyone else'.
I can agree that fake repentance is an issue, but the word fake indicates it never happened. However, I also know that on many issues (even though I repented and changed) there was and is more growth to go.

Secularism doesn't appear to my mind to have a monopoly on individual responsibility. For me when I went down that road I did not end up as an Ann Randian figure of individual responsibility. I just ended up depressed, inadequate and nihilistic. Results may differ but I think that the general trend supports the direction I went and I think those that don't go in that direction aren't relying on secularism or atheism but have other fundamentals like a job or family keeping them going.
If you reconsider my post you'll see that fake repentance is put at the end of the trail and is not all kinds. Can you honestly say that some religious figures (who get found out and do not deny everything) fake repentance and haven't really done so? Others perhaps do sin no more and others may intend to but don't. Repentance and forgiveness with mumbling a few words and a dollar in the tin is, as I suggested, a recipe for not curing the sin, but a pill to cover up the symptoms or a nostrum that does nothing but make money for the quack.

But in any case, it's recognising that mumbling prayers does nothing, especially if no restitution is made. Jesus forgives you, so the injured party doesn't have to. Again, I'm sure you can point to Bible, and examples of restitution and forgiveness, but you can't say that the other doesn't happen.

Now, your 'I used to be an atheist - like you - until....' story may be genuine, (1) but rather fails because taking persona responsibility for ones own actions rather than offloading them onto Jesus doers not (apparently always) lead to depression, feelings of inadequacy or nihilism. In fact it is empowering, uplifting and inspiring to have...now what was that word.... can't think of it say, elbow room to see to it yourself rather than being helpless and hopeless without Jesusgod.

(1) gotta do this...'nihilism' is a red flag that the user was never a real atheist, or at least has totally mentally blanked what it was like to be one.

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Re: #2 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of repentance

Post #10

Post by benchwarmer »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:42 pm (1) gotta do this...'nihilism' is a red flag that the user was never a real atheist, or at least has totally mentally blanked what it was like to be one.
And I gotta do this :)

Everyone started as a 'real' atheist (no belief in gods). I think maybe you mean 'informed' atheist. i.e. someone who is actually aware of the idea of gods and at least somewhat learned on the various arguments one way or another. In other words, if someone understands the issues with the various arguments for gods, they would likely not all of a sudden forget them. Once you understand a logical flaw, it shouldn't magically disappear (unless you were incorrect I suppose).

For example, there's no way it's possible for me to convert back to Christianity (at least all present forms that I'm aware of). Even if Jesus Himself showed up, I doubt even He could reconcile the mishmash of current contradictions and baloney purported by the various denominations.

In other words, I've seen how the sausage is made. I've seen behind the curtain. I've discovered the problems and the problems I've seen cannot disappear. The only way I would be able to become a theist again is to be exposed to a NEW theism that relies on actual evidence of the god in question. I no longer accept faith claims and simply hope it's true. It would have to be something like "Ya, all those problems you have observed are because something is actually wrong there. The truth is .... and here's the evidence to back it up ...."

Sorry for the rant, now back to the OP:

The downsides of "Christian repentance":

- Some Christians might believe that simply asking for forgiveness from someone they can't see or actually converse with (Jesus/God/Holy Spirit) is enough to absolve them of the issue.

- Christians are 'told' the issues that need repentance based on rules humans wrote down thousands of years ago. The actual list of transgressions is different based on denomination and often personal interpretation. This can lead to unnecessary guilt if the 'sin' is not actually an issue. For example, I'm quite comfortable in my cotton poly blend underwear and don't feel any guilt for wearing them. If you dig through the OT, you will find that I am 'sinning'.

The upsides of "Christian repentance":

- If an actual wrong was committed against another person, the required "Christian repentance" may hopefully encourage the 'sinner' to also ask forgiveness and/or rectify the situation with the person or persons actually harmed by the act. This includes self harm. In other words, even if I personally find "Christian repentance" useless in itself, actual repentance with a person harmed would be a useful side effect.

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