I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.
Jesus' words:
1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)
2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)
3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)
He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)
5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)
6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)
7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)
To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)
Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?
Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?
JESUS IS NOT GOD
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #992Peace to you,
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
So all things were made THROUGH Christ.
The author of Hebrews makes the same statement, but please note that the author does not state or even imply that Christ is [YHWH].
On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He (God) has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
Here, the author is describing God and His Son as two beings. God speaks to us by His Son, through whom He (God) made the universe.
God created the universe (and all in it), and He did this THROUGH His Son (who was with God in the beginning.)
On some occasions (regarding there being no other God), God is speaking to Israel with regard to the many foreign gods that other nations worshiped, that Israel kept going after.
But Christ is not a savior apart from God. Christ is from God, the One through whom God saves.
Perhaps it was to your point.
But it was on the topic of John 1:1, and how some (many?) believe that using the word "God/god" means a claim to be the [YHWH].
Peace to you.
John 1:3 and John 1:10:Runner wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:08 pmSorry, but I feel like you are all over the place.tam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:05 pm Peace to you,
As well as John 10:35.
They (to whom the Word of God came) were called gods. That did not make them THE God (YHWH).
The Psalm verse sometimes capitalizes "G" and sometimes does not.Remind me which verses, please.Some translations use 'g' and some use 'G'. Either way, Christ did not call the men from these verses demons. Nor did He call them THE God (the MOST Holy One, the MOST High God, [YHWH]).
The verse at John 10:35 is never capitalized as far as I know.
Either way - it does not mean that just because someone (even if an angel) is called "god/God" that they are the MOST Holy One of Israel, the Father, [YHWH].
John 1:1 does not state that the Word (Christ) is the MOST High God, the MOST Holy One, the Father, [YHWH].
Then that would make all angels out to be gods, but that also contradicts the claim that all little 'g' gods are demons since some angels do indeed serve (faithfully) God and His Son.All angels are referred to as sons of God. Job 38:7 shows the Holy angels present at Creation shouting for joy and refers to them as sons of God.Also, the verse in Psalm that Christ references called these men (who are called gods) sons of God. Not demons. You are mistaken.
Peace again to you.
John 1:1 & 14 states that Jesus Christ, the Word, is God in that He created everything that exists. Looking to Genesis 1:1 that is confirmed.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
So all things were made THROUGH Christ.
The author of Hebrews makes the same statement, but please note that the author does not state or even imply that Christ is [YHWH].
On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He (God) has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
Here, the author is describing God and His Son as two beings. God speaks to us by His Son, through whom He (God) made the universe.
God created the universe (and all in it), and He did this THROUGH His Son (who was with God in the beginning.)
Yet He never once makes that claim.Seeing that God Almighty claims to be the ONLY God (meaning one single individual, not three persons) and the ONLY Savior in Isaiah 43:3, 11, 15 & Isaiah 44:21, logic, and sound division of Scripture, concludes that Jesus Christ is God Almighty.
On some occasions (regarding there being no other God), God is speaking to Israel with regard to the many foreign gods that other nations worshiped, that Israel kept going after.
But Christ is not a savior apart from God. Christ is from God, the One through whom God saves.
Everything else you keep bringing up about gods and God, etc. is completely irrelevant.
Perhaps it was to your point.
But it was on the topic of John 1:1, and how some (many?) believe that using the word "God/god" means a claim to be the [YHWH].
Peace to you.
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #993[Replying to tam in post #992]
Again, you are all over the place. Discussions follow a flow of ideas from one person to the other. You just don't follow that pattern at all.
You say that John 1:1 & 14 only prove that God Almighty created everything through the man Jesus. There's just one very big problem with that. The man Jesus wasn't even born until 2000 years ago. The world has been around at least 3x that long. For God to have created everything there is through Jesus Christ, that would mean that Jesus is NOT just a man, but a Spirit - which is exactly what the Bible teaches. God is a Spirit. (John 4:24) Christ is a Spirit. (Romans 8:9-11)
Jesus can only come to live within us as a spirit. (John 14:21-23)
Do you know any Christians with a physical man Jesus living within them?
Pretty sure I've already presented this problem as well, but do you know any mortal man who has no human, earthly, father? That is scientifically impossible. Right?
Try to follow this post with a modicum of continuity to the discussion, please.
God bless.
Again, you are all over the place. Discussions follow a flow of ideas from one person to the other. You just don't follow that pattern at all.
You say that John 1:1 & 14 only prove that God Almighty created everything through the man Jesus. There's just one very big problem with that. The man Jesus wasn't even born until 2000 years ago. The world has been around at least 3x that long. For God to have created everything there is through Jesus Christ, that would mean that Jesus is NOT just a man, but a Spirit - which is exactly what the Bible teaches. God is a Spirit. (John 4:24) Christ is a Spirit. (Romans 8:9-11)
Jesus can only come to live within us as a spirit. (John 14:21-23)
Do you know any Christians with a physical man Jesus living within them?
Pretty sure I've already presented this problem as well, but do you know any mortal man who has no human, earthly, father? That is scientifically impossible. Right?
Try to follow this post with a modicum of continuity to the discussion, please.
God bless.
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #994Peace to you,
You said that these verses prove that Christ is God Almighty, and you linked that to the Word being in the beginning (at the creation). Was that not your point?
I simply showed that this is not the case, this does not make Christ [YHWH], because God made everything THROUGH His Son (just as the other verses bore witness).
Christ was with God in the beginning. He is the firstborn. The Light. The One through whom God made the universe. He (Christ, the Word) became flesh and walked among us about two thousand years ago, sure. But that was not the beginning of His existence.
Christ is indeed the Spirit (2Corinthians 3:18).
Christ is spirit. God is spirit. There are also spirit beings. If Christ is the image of His Father, the firstborn, the Son of God, then of course He is spirit, just as His Father is spirit. That does not make them the same person.
God and His Son can indeed dwell with(in) us by means of God's holy spirit. (That is the same holy spirit that Christ breathed upon the apostles; also upon those at Pentecost, and upon Cornelius and his household. That holy spirit is not a person - Christ did not breath a person onto the apostles - but rather, the breath/blood/seed of JAH).
Runner wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:48 pm [Replying to tam in post #992]
Again, you are all over the place. Discussions follow a flow of ideas from one person to the other. You just don't follow that pattern at all. You say that John 1:1 & 14 only prove that God Almighty created everything through the man Jesus.
You said that these verses prove that Christ is God Almighty, and you linked that to the Word being in the beginning (at the creation). Was that not your point?
I simply showed that this is not the case, this does not make Christ [YHWH], because God made everything THROUGH His Son (just as the other verses bore witness).
I have never made the claim that Christ is just a man.There's just one very big problem with that. The man Jesus wasn't even born until 2000 years ago. The world has been around at least 3x that long. For God to have created everything there is through Jesus Christ, that would mean that Jesus is NOT just a man, but a Spirit - which is exactly what the Bible teaches. God is a Spirit. (John 4:24) Christ is a Spirit. (Romans 8:9-11)
Christ was with God in the beginning. He is the firstborn. The Light. The One through whom God made the universe. He (Christ, the Word) became flesh and walked among us about two thousand years ago, sure. But that was not the beginning of His existence.
Christ is indeed the Spirit (2Corinthians 3:18).
Christ is spirit. God is spirit. There are also spirit beings. If Christ is the image of His Father, the firstborn, the Son of God, then of course He is spirit, just as His Father is spirit. That does not make them the same person.
I did not make these claims (that Christ was only ever just a man).Jesus can only come to live within us as a spirit. (John 14:21-23)
Do you know any Christians with a physical man Jesus living within them?
Pretty sure I've already presented this problem as well, but do you know any mortal man who has no human, earthly, father? That is scientifically impossible. Right?
Try to follow this post with a modicum of continuity to the discussion, please.
God and His Son can indeed dwell with(in) us by means of God's holy spirit. (That is the same holy spirit that Christ breathed upon the apostles; also upon those at Pentecost, and upon Cornelius and his household. That holy spirit is not a person - Christ did not breath a person onto the apostles - but rather, the breath/blood/seed of JAH).
Thank you, and again, peace to you and to your household.God bless.
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #995[Replying to tam in post #994]
You say He is not God, but you say He is not a man.
Can you please show with Scripture where the Bible claims that there are "spirit beings" that are not either angels or God? If they are angels of God, that is one type of entity.
If they are fallen angels, they are demons.
So far, your doctrine of God is this: God is God, but He has a "spirit being" that is with Him.
The Bible makes very clear that there is nobody else with God. There is NONE beside Him.
If Isaiah 43:3 identifies the Father as the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, the Savior. That leaves nothing for a separate Christ.
Isaiah 43:3, 10, 15 and Isaiah 44:21 leave no room for there to be any spirit being Christ that you are claiming.
Are you trying to make the case that God created the world through some separate Spirit? Can you find any Scripture to support such a case?
Can you please clarify what you believe Christ is.Christ is spirit. God is spirit. There are also spirit beings. If Christ is the image of His Father, the firstborn, the Son of God, then of course He is spirit, just as His Father is spirit. That does not make them the same person.
You say He is not God, but you say He is not a man.
Can you please show with Scripture where the Bible claims that there are "spirit beings" that are not either angels or God? If they are angels of God, that is one type of entity.
If they are fallen angels, they are demons.
So far, your doctrine of God is this: God is God, but He has a "spirit being" that is with Him.
The Bible makes very clear that there is nobody else with God. There is NONE beside Him.
If Isaiah 43:3 identifies the Father as the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, the Savior. That leaves nothing for a separate Christ.
Isaiah 43:3, 10, 15 and Isaiah 44:21 leave no room for there to be any spirit being Christ that you are claiming.
Are you trying to make the case that God created the world through some separate Spirit? Can you find any Scripture to support such a case?
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #996Runner wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:55 pmLet's clear that up:
Daniel 7:13-14
"I saw in the night visions (seen in a vision), ... one like (with the likeness of) the son of man (Jesus Christ) came with the clouds of heaven ... (only God Almighty - the Father - comes upon the clouds of heaven as seen all throughout the interactions in the wilderness with the Israelites. The pillar of cloud, the cloud that filled the Temple, etc.)
Job 22:14
Job 26:8-9
Job 35:5
Job 36:28-29
Job 37:11, 15-16, 18
Job 38:9, 34, 36-37
Psalm 77:17
Psalm 147:8
... and there was given Him (Jesus) dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations and languages should serve Him (are none serving God Almighty anymore?)"
This kingdom is above ALL kingdoms. That means Jesus sits upon the only throne that exists, the highest throne. What happened to the Father? Did He pass away? Nope.
1 Thess. 4:16
"with the voice of the archangel"
Do a deep dive into the origins of the word archangel and you will find that it can also mean leader of the angels. That's what Lord of Hosts means. It doesn't have to mean the highest angel, or one of the angels, at all. Also, we see that moment echoed in Revelation 19:11-16 where Jesus is the Savior that returns on a white horse with all the armies of heaven following Him as he carries a sword and brings the wrath of Almighty God wearing the name King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
That's clearly not Michael the angel.
It is God who gave Jesus all authority=God who is superior to Jesus= The Father is greater than i. 1Cor 15:24-28--Jesus hands back the kingdom to his God and Father and subjects himself)--this occurs after Rev 20 is done.--God is in subjection to no one.
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #997Runner wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:59 pmNice dodge.kjw47 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:52 pmHe is Gods master worker of Prov 8, he tells there he was created. He gives God all credit for the creation-Coll 1:15--The firstborn of all creation)-All creation happened at the beginning.
You didn't answer the question.
Would you like to try again.
I didnt dodge, i showed you truth.
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #9981Thess 4:16--This is when Jesus returned( not to earth, but to power and glory) Rev 6:1--He receives his crown-- This is called the presence-Matt 24:3-1Cor 15:23-2Pet 1:16tam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:02 pm Peace to you,
You're doing the same thing as people who claim the trinity is true or that Christ is [YHWH]. You are interpreting and reading INTO the text. But the bottom line is that Christ did not teach this. He did not teach that He is Michael the arkangel; He did not teach that He is [YHWH], and He did not teach that He is part of a trinity. The apostles did not teach these things either.kjw47 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:24 pmtam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:13 pm Peace to you,
He also comes with the trumpet call of God but that does not make Him God.kjw47 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:50 pmRunner wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:34 pmNo, Jesus is not Michael.kjw47 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:49 pm are one in purpose, but Jesus was clear at John 17:3--This means eternal life, their knowing you( Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus---2major points of truth taught by Jesus--The Father is the only true God, and the only true did not come to earth he sent another. See Jesus says you are wrong.
Jesus is Michael, not God.
If Jesus is Michael, then Michael is God Almighty. There is just no evidence of that anywhere in Scripture.
Feel free to come discuss this in the thread JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY.
viewtopic.php?t=40380
Dan 7:13-15--Someone like a son of man( created)gained access to the ancient of days( Jehovah) and was given a kingship( Jesus)
1Thess 4:16--Upon Jesus return he comes with the voice of the archangel--Does he borrow it from Michael or is it his voice?
Michael (the arkangel) announces the return of Christ (the voice of an archangel); the trumpet call announces the return of Christ.
Peace again to you.
Christ said that He is the Son of God. The Truth. The Way. The Life. The Light (remember that God brought forth the Light). The Amen. The Word of God.
A - there is no trumpet at Rev 6:1The trumpet announces the ride of the white horse(Rev 6:1)--This is the start of the war in heaven, but notice-he receives his crown, only Jesus gets the crown, yet Michael took that ride--Its the same ride continued at Rev 19:11( Armageddon)-yet Jesus is pictured here.
B - You have overlooked the point. Christ is not God just because he returns with the trumpet call of God. Just as Christ is not an arkangel just because He returns with the voice of an arkangel.
C - Rev 6 does not state that this is the start of the war in heaven.
D - There is nothing in either Rev 6 or 19 that depicts Michael taking a ride of anything.
E - Rev 19:11 clearly depicts Christ, because the Word of God is Christ (with many crowns). It does not depict Michael. When Michael is doing something (such as fighting with his angels against the Adversary and his angels), Michael is clearly stated as being Michael.
Jude speaks of them both in his letter. First he speaks of Christ (using His name), then he later speaks of the arkangel Michael. He does not speak of them as if they are the same person, because they are two different people.
That ride does not end until after Rev 20 is complete. Dan 12:1--It is Michael who stands up for Gods chosen in the last days.
Daniel speaks of Michael as being one of the chief princes. Meaning there is more than one chief prince. Michael is the chief prince that serves God and Christ (the Chosen One of JAH).
Peace again to you.
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #999These are just jw doctrines that you are repeating. You did not respond to anything in my post.kjw47 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:34 pm1Thess 4:16--This is when Jesus returned( not to earth, but to power and glory) Rev 6:1--He receives his crown-- This is called the presence-Matt 24:3-1Cor 15:23-2Pet 1:16tam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:02 pm Peace to you,
You're doing the same thing as people who claim the trinity is true or that Christ is [YHWH]. You are interpreting and reading INTO the text. But the bottom line is that Christ did not teach this. He did not teach that He is Michael the arkangel; He did not teach that He is [YHWH], and He did not teach that He is part of a trinity. The apostles did not teach these things either.kjw47 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:24 pmtam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:13 pm Peace to you,
He also comes with the trumpet call of God but that does not make Him God.kjw47 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:50 pmRunner wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:34 pmNo, Jesus is not Michael.kjw47 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:49 pm are one in purpose, but Jesus was clear at John 17:3--This means eternal life, their knowing you( Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus---2major points of truth taught by Jesus--The Father is the only true God, and the only true did not come to earth he sent another. See Jesus says you are wrong.
Jesus is Michael, not God.
If Jesus is Michael, then Michael is God Almighty. There is just no evidence of that anywhere in Scripture.
Feel free to come discuss this in the thread JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY.
viewtopic.php?t=40380
Dan 7:13-15--Someone like a son of man( created)gained access to the ancient of days( Jehovah) and was given a kingship( Jesus)
1Thess 4:16--Upon Jesus return he comes with the voice of the archangel--Does he borrow it from Michael or is it his voice?
Michael (the arkangel) announces the return of Christ (the voice of an archangel); the trumpet call announces the return of Christ.
Peace again to you.
Christ said that He is the Son of God. The Truth. The Way. The Life. The Light (remember that God brought forth the Light). The Amen. The Word of God.
A - there is no trumpet at Rev 6:1The trumpet announces the ride of the white horse(Rev 6:1)--This is the start of the war in heaven, but notice-he receives his crown, only Jesus gets the crown, yet Michael took that ride--Its the same ride continued at Rev 19:11( Armageddon)-yet Jesus is pictured here.
B - You have overlooked the point. Christ is not God just because he returns with the trumpet call of God. Just as Christ is not an arkangel just because He returns with the voice of an arkangel.
C - Rev 6 does not state that this is the start of the war in heaven.
D - There is nothing in either Rev 6 or 19 that depicts Michael taking a ride of anything.
E - Rev 19:11 clearly depicts Christ, because the Word of God is Christ (with many crowns). It does not depict Michael. When Michael is doing something (such as fighting with his angels against the Adversary and his angels), Michael is clearly stated as being Michael.
Jude speaks of them both in his letter. First he speaks of Christ (using His name), then he later speaks of the arkangel Michael. He does not speak of them as if they are the same person, because they are two different people.
That ride does not end until after Rev 20 is complete. Dan 12:1--It is Michael who stands up for Gods chosen in the last days.
Daniel speaks of Michael as being one of the chief princes. Meaning there is more than one chief prince. Michael is the chief prince that serves God and Christ (the Chosen One of JAH).
Peace again to you.
1 Thess 4:16 speaks of when Christ returns to the earth. That is why people are spoke of being caught UP to meet Him in the sky.
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Look at the words that are bolded and underlined.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.
These are directional words. He will DESCEND from heaven. This has nothing to do with a 'return to power and glory'. This is an actual return. First the dead in Him will rise and then all who belong to Him, who are yet alive and remain on the earth, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Everything in this verse speaks to His actual return. Nothing in this verse even suggests a 'return to power and glory'.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #1000tam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:56 pmThese are just jw doctrines that you are repeating. You did not respond to anything in my post.kjw47 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:34 pm1Thess 4:16--This is when Jesus returned( not to earth, but to power and glory) Rev 6:1--He receives his crown-- This is called the presence-Matt 24:3-1Cor 15:23-2Pet 1:16tam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:02 pm Peace to you,
You're doing the same thing as people who claim the trinity is true or that Christ is [YHWH]. You are interpreting and reading INTO the text. But the bottom line is that Christ did not teach this. He did not teach that He is Michael the arkangel; He did not teach that He is [YHWH], and He did not teach that He is part of a trinity. The apostles did not teach these things either.kjw47 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:24 pmtam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:13 pm Peace to you,
He also comes with the trumpet call of God but that does not make Him God.kjw47 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:50 pmRunner wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:34 pmNo, Jesus is not Michael.kjw47 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:49 pm are one in purpose, but Jesus was clear at John 17:3--This means eternal life, their knowing you( Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus---2major points of truth taught by Jesus--The Father is the only true God, and the only true did not come to earth he sent another. See Jesus says you are wrong.
Jesus is Michael, not God.
If Jesus is Michael, then Michael is God Almighty. There is just no evidence of that anywhere in Scripture.
Feel free to come discuss this in the thread JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY.
viewtopic.php?t=40380
Dan 7:13-15--Someone like a son of man( created)gained access to the ancient of days( Jehovah) and was given a kingship( Jesus)
1Thess 4:16--Upon Jesus return he comes with the voice of the archangel--Does he borrow it from Michael or is it his voice?
Michael (the arkangel) announces the return of Christ (the voice of an archangel); the trumpet call announces the return of Christ.
Peace again to you.
Christ said that He is the Son of God. The Truth. The Way. The Life. The Light (remember that God brought forth the Light). The Amen. The Word of God.
A - there is no trumpet at Rev 6:1The trumpet announces the ride of the white horse(Rev 6:1)--This is the start of the war in heaven, but notice-he receives his crown, only Jesus gets the crown, yet Michael took that ride--Its the same ride continued at Rev 19:11( Armageddon)-yet Jesus is pictured here.
B - You have overlooked the point. Christ is not God just because he returns with the trumpet call of God. Just as Christ is not an arkangel just because He returns with the voice of an arkangel.
C - Rev 6 does not state that this is the start of the war in heaven.
D - There is nothing in either Rev 6 or 19 that depicts Michael taking a ride of anything.
E - Rev 19:11 clearly depicts Christ, because the Word of God is Christ (with many crowns). It does not depict Michael. When Michael is doing something (such as fighting with his angels against the Adversary and his angels), Michael is clearly stated as being Michael.
Jude speaks of them both in his letter. First he speaks of Christ (using His name), then he later speaks of the arkangel Michael. He does not speak of them as if they are the same person, because they are two different people.
That ride does not end until after Rev 20 is complete. Dan 12:1--It is Michael who stands up for Gods chosen in the last days.
Daniel speaks of Michael as being one of the chief princes. Meaning there is more than one chief prince. Michael is the chief prince that serves God and Christ (the Chosen One of JAH).
Peace again to you.
1 Thess 4:16 speaks of when Christ returns to the earth. That is why people are spoke of being caught UP to meet Him in the sky.
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Look at the words that are bolded and underlined.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.
These are directional words. He will DESCEND from heaven. This has nothing to do with a 'return to power and glory'. This is an actual return. First the dead in Him will rise and then all who belong to Him, who are yet alive and remain on the earth, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Everything in this verse speaks to His actual return. Nothing in this verse even suggests a 'return to power and glory'.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
His rulership descended from heaven at that point, Few listen to him. He comes to earth here at Rev 19:11--the world will not like this, its Armageddon. His rulership began at Rev 6:1=the presence, as all the verses i showed you affirmed.