JESUS IS NOT GOD

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

Runner
Banned
Banned
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:37 am
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #991

Post by Runner »

tam wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:09 pmChrist said that He is the SON OF God.

People keep trying to make Him someone other than who He claimed.
Christ claimed to be God many times, many ways.

And the Bible reveals Him as God many times, many ways.

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #992

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Runner wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:08 pm
tam wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:05 pm Peace to you,
Runner wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:43 pm
tam wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:19 pm I never said you claimed it. Christ is the One who claimed it (as is written from the Psalms).
If you're referring to Psalm 82,


As well as John 10:35.

They (to whom the Word of God came) were called gods. That did not make them THE God (YHWH).
Some translations use 'g' and some use 'G'. Either way, Christ did not call the men from these verses demons. Nor did He call them THE God (the MOST Holy One, the MOST High God, [YHWH]).
Remind me which verses, please.
The Psalm verse sometimes capitalizes "G" and sometimes does not.

The verse at John 10:35 is never capitalized as far as I know.

Either way - it does not mean that just because someone (even if an angel) is called "god/God" that they are the MOST Holy One of Israel, the Father, [YHWH].

John 1:1 does not state that the Word (Christ) is the MOST High God, the MOST Holy One, the Father, [YHWH].
Also, the verse in Psalm that Christ references called these men (who are called gods) sons of God. Not demons. You are mistaken.
All angels are referred to as sons of God. Job 38:7 shows the Holy angels present at Creation shouting for joy and refers to them as sons of God.
Then that would make all angels out to be gods, but that also contradicts the claim that all little 'g' gods are demons since some angels do indeed serve (faithfully) God and His Son.


Peace again to you.
Sorry, but I feel like you are all over the place.

John 1:1 & 14 states that Jesus Christ, the Word, is God in that He created everything that exists. Looking to Genesis 1:1 that is confirmed.
John 1:3 and John 1:10:

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

So all things were made THROUGH Christ.

The author of Hebrews makes the same statement, but please note that the author does not state or even imply that Christ is [YHWH].

On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He (God) has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

Here, the author is describing God and His Son as two beings. God speaks to us by His Son, through whom He (God) made the universe.

God created the universe (and all in it), and He did this THROUGH His Son (who was with God in the beginning.)

Seeing that God Almighty claims to be the ONLY God (meaning one single individual, not three persons) and the ONLY Savior in Isaiah 43:3, 11, 15 & Isaiah 44:21, logic, and sound division of Scripture, concludes that Jesus Christ is God Almighty.
Yet He never once makes that claim.

On some occasions (regarding there being no other God), God is speaking to Israel with regard to the many foreign gods that other nations worshiped, that Israel kept going after.

But Christ is not a savior apart from God. Christ is from God, the One through whom God saves.
Everything else you keep bringing up about gods and God, etc. is completely irrelevant.

Perhaps it was to your point.

But it was on the topic of John 1:1, and how some (many?) believe that using the word "God/god" means a claim to be the [YHWH].

Peace to you.
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

Runner
Banned
Banned
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:37 am
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #993

Post by Runner »

[Replying to tam in post #992]

Again, you are all over the place. Discussions follow a flow of ideas from one person to the other. You just don't follow that pattern at all.

You say that John 1:1 & 14 only prove that God Almighty created everything through the man Jesus. There's just one very big problem with that. The man Jesus wasn't even born until 2000 years ago. The world has been around at least 3x that long. For God to have created everything there is through Jesus Christ, that would mean that Jesus is NOT just a man, but a Spirit - which is exactly what the Bible teaches. God is a Spirit. (John 4:24) Christ is a Spirit. (Romans 8:9-11)

Jesus can only come to live within us as a spirit. (John 14:21-23)

Do you know any Christians with a physical man Jesus living within them?

Pretty sure I've already presented this problem as well, but do you know any mortal man who has no human, earthly, father? That is scientifically impossible. Right?

Try to follow this post with a modicum of continuity to the discussion, please.

God bless.

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #994

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Runner wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:48 pm [Replying to tam in post #992]

Again, you are all over the place. Discussions follow a flow of ideas from one person to the other. You just don't follow that pattern at all. You say that John 1:1 & 14 only prove that God Almighty created everything through the man Jesus.


You said that these verses prove that Christ is God Almighty, and you linked that to the Word being in the beginning (at the creation). Was that not your point?

I simply showed that this is not the case, this does not make Christ [YHWH], because God made everything THROUGH His Son (just as the other verses bore witness).

There's just one very big problem with that. The man Jesus wasn't even born until 2000 years ago. The world has been around at least 3x that long. For God to have created everything there is through Jesus Christ, that would mean that Jesus is NOT just a man, but a Spirit - which is exactly what the Bible teaches. God is a Spirit. (John 4:24) Christ is a Spirit. (Romans 8:9-11)
I have never made the claim that Christ is just a man.

Christ was with God in the beginning. He is the firstborn. The Light. The One through whom God made the universe. He (Christ, the Word) became flesh and walked among us about two thousand years ago, sure. But that was not the beginning of His existence.

Christ is indeed the Spirit (2Corinthians 3:18).

Christ is spirit. God is spirit. There are also spirit beings. If Christ is the image of His Father, the firstborn, the Son of God, then of course He is spirit, just as His Father is spirit. That does not make them the same person.


Jesus can only come to live within us as a spirit. (John 14:21-23)

Do you know any Christians with a physical man Jesus living within them?

Pretty sure I've already presented this problem as well, but do you know any mortal man who has no human, earthly, father? That is scientifically impossible. Right?

Try to follow this post with a modicum of continuity to the discussion, please.
I did not make these claims (that Christ was only ever just a man).

God and His Son can indeed dwell with(in) us by means of God's holy spirit. (That is the same holy spirit that Christ breathed upon the apostles; also upon those at Pentecost, and upon Cornelius and his household. That holy spirit is not a person - Christ did not breath a person onto the apostles - but rather, the breath/blood/seed of JAH).
God bless.
Thank you, and again, peace to you and to your household.
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

Runner
Banned
Banned
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:37 am
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #995

Post by Runner »

[Replying to tam in post #994]
Christ is spirit. God is spirit. There are also spirit beings. If Christ is the image of His Father, the firstborn, the Son of God, then of course He is spirit, just as His Father is spirit. That does not make them the same person.
Can you please clarify what you believe Christ is.

You say He is not God, but you say He is not a man.

Can you please show with Scripture where the Bible claims that there are "spirit beings" that are not either angels or God? If they are angels of God, that is one type of entity.

If they are fallen angels, they are demons.

So far, your doctrine of God is this: God is God, but He has a "spirit being" that is with Him.

The Bible makes very clear that there is nobody else with God. There is NONE beside Him.

If Isaiah 43:3 identifies the Father as the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, the Savior. That leaves nothing for a separate Christ.

Isaiah 43:3, 10, 15 and Isaiah 44:21 leave no room for there to be any spirit being Christ that you are claiming.

Are you trying to make the case that God created the world through some separate Spirit? Can you find any Scripture to support such a case?

kjw47
Under Probation
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:37 pm
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #996

Post by kjw47 »

Runner wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:55 pm
kjw47 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:50 pmDan 7:13-15--Someone like a son of man( created)gained access to the ancient of days( Jehovah) and was given a kingship( Jesus)
1Thess 4:16--Upon Jesus return he comes with the voice of the archangel--Does he borrow it from Michael or is it his voice?
Let's clear that up:

Daniel 7:13-14
"I saw in the night visions (seen in a vision), ... one like (with the likeness of) the son of man (Jesus Christ) came with the clouds of heaven ... (only God Almighty - the Father - comes upon the clouds of heaven as seen all throughout the interactions in the wilderness with the Israelites. The pillar of cloud, the cloud that filled the Temple, etc.)

Job 22:14
Job 26:8-9
Job 35:5
Job 36:28-29
Job 37:11, 15-16, 18
Job 38:9, 34, 36-37
Psalm 77:17
Psalm 147:8

... and there was given Him (Jesus) dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations and languages should serve Him (are none serving God Almighty anymore?)"

This kingdom is above ALL kingdoms. That means Jesus sits upon the only throne that exists, the highest throne. What happened to the Father? Did He pass away? Nope.

1 Thess. 4:16
"with the voice of the archangel"

Do a deep dive into the origins of the word archangel and you will find that it can also mean leader of the angels. That's what Lord of Hosts means. It doesn't have to mean the highest angel, or one of the angels, at all. Also, we see that moment echoed in Revelation 19:11-16 where Jesus is the Savior that returns on a white horse with all the armies of heaven following Him as he carries a sword and brings the wrath of Almighty God wearing the name King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

That's clearly not Michael the angel.

It is God who gave Jesus all authority=God who is superior to Jesus= The Father is greater than i. 1Cor 15:24-28--Jesus hands back the kingdom to his God and Father and subjects himself)--this occurs after Rev 20 is done.--God is in subjection to no one.

kjw47
Under Probation
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:37 pm
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #997

Post by kjw47 »

Runner wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:59 pm
kjw47 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:52 pm
Runner wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:38 pm
kjw47 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:50 pm I didnt say he was just a man--you made that up all on your own.
Okay, let's clarify.

If you say Jesus is not God, what, then, is He?

There are only so many options available.

If He isn't God, and He isn't a man, are you claiming He is a demi-god/idol (demon)?
He is Gods master worker of Prov 8, he tells there he was created. He gives God all credit for the creation-Coll 1:15--The firstborn of all creation)-All creation happened at the beginning.
Nice dodge.

You didn't answer the question.

Would you like to try again.

I didnt dodge, i showed you truth.

kjw47
Under Probation
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:37 pm
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #998

Post by kjw47 »

tam wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:02 pm Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:24 pm
tam wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:13 pm Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:50 pm
Runner wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:34 pm
kjw47 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:49 pm are one in purpose, but Jesus was clear at John 17:3--This means eternal life, their knowing you( Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus---2major points of truth taught by Jesus--The Father is the only true God, and the only true did not come to earth he sent another. See Jesus says you are wrong.
Jesus is Michael, not God.
No, Jesus is not Michael.

If Jesus is Michael, then Michael is God Almighty. There is just no evidence of that anywhere in Scripture.

Feel free to come discuss this in the thread JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY.
viewtopic.php?t=40380

Dan 7:13-15--Someone like a son of man( created)gained access to the ancient of days( Jehovah) and was given a kingship( Jesus)
1Thess 4:16--Upon Jesus return he comes with the voice of the archangel--Does he borrow it from Michael or is it his voice?
He also comes with the trumpet call of God but that does not make Him God.

Michael (the arkangel) announces the return of Christ (the voice of an archangel); the trumpet call announces the return of Christ.


Peace again to you.
You're doing the same thing as people who claim the trinity is true or that Christ is [YHWH]. You are interpreting and reading INTO the text. But the bottom line is that Christ did not teach this. He did not teach that He is Michael the arkangel; He did not teach that He is [YHWH], and He did not teach that He is part of a trinity. The apostles did not teach these things either.


Christ said that He is the Son of God. The Truth. The Way. The Life. The Light (remember that God brought forth the Light). The Amen. The Word of God.


The trumpet announces the ride of the white horse(Rev 6:1)--This is the start of the war in heaven, but notice-he receives his crown, only Jesus gets the crown, yet Michael took that ride--Its the same ride continued at Rev 19:11( Armageddon)-yet Jesus is pictured here.
A - there is no trumpet at Rev 6:1

B - You have overlooked the point. Christ is not God just because he returns with the trumpet call of God. Just as Christ is not an arkangel just because He returns with the voice of an arkangel.

C - Rev 6 does not state that this is the start of the war in heaven.

D - There is nothing in either Rev 6 or 19 that depicts Michael taking a ride of anything.

E - Rev 19:11 clearly depicts Christ, because the Word of God is Christ (with many crowns). It does not depict Michael. When Michael is doing something (such as fighting with his angels against the Adversary and his angels), Michael is clearly stated as being Michael.

Jude speaks of them both in his letter. First he speaks of Christ (using His name), then he later speaks of the arkangel Michael. He does not speak of them as if they are the same person, because they are two different people.


That ride does not end until after Rev 20 is complete. Dan 12:1--It is Michael who stands up for Gods chosen in the last days.

Daniel speaks of Michael as being one of the chief princes. Meaning there is more than one chief prince. Michael is the chief prince that serves God and Christ (the Chosen One of JAH).


Peace again to you.
1Thess 4:16--This is when Jesus returned( not to earth, but to power and glory) Rev 6:1--He receives his crown-- This is called the presence-Matt 24:3-1Cor 15:23-2Pet 1:16

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #999

Post by tam »

kjw47 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:34 pm
tam wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:02 pm Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:24 pm
tam wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:13 pm Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:50 pm
Runner wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:34 pm
kjw47 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:49 pm are one in purpose, but Jesus was clear at John 17:3--This means eternal life, their knowing you( Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus---2major points of truth taught by Jesus--The Father is the only true God, and the only true did not come to earth he sent another. See Jesus says you are wrong.
Jesus is Michael, not God.
No, Jesus is not Michael.

If Jesus is Michael, then Michael is God Almighty. There is just no evidence of that anywhere in Scripture.

Feel free to come discuss this in the thread JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY.
viewtopic.php?t=40380

Dan 7:13-15--Someone like a son of man( created)gained access to the ancient of days( Jehovah) and was given a kingship( Jesus)
1Thess 4:16--Upon Jesus return he comes with the voice of the archangel--Does he borrow it from Michael or is it his voice?
He also comes with the trumpet call of God but that does not make Him God.

Michael (the arkangel) announces the return of Christ (the voice of an archangel); the trumpet call announces the return of Christ.


Peace again to you.
You're doing the same thing as people who claim the trinity is true or that Christ is [YHWH]. You are interpreting and reading INTO the text. But the bottom line is that Christ did not teach this. He did not teach that He is Michael the arkangel; He did not teach that He is [YHWH], and He did not teach that He is part of a trinity. The apostles did not teach these things either.


Christ said that He is the Son of God. The Truth. The Way. The Life. The Light (remember that God brought forth the Light). The Amen. The Word of God.


The trumpet announces the ride of the white horse(Rev 6:1)--This is the start of the war in heaven, but notice-he receives his crown, only Jesus gets the crown, yet Michael took that ride--Its the same ride continued at Rev 19:11( Armageddon)-yet Jesus is pictured here.
A - there is no trumpet at Rev 6:1

B - You have overlooked the point. Christ is not God just because he returns with the trumpet call of God. Just as Christ is not an arkangel just because He returns with the voice of an arkangel.

C - Rev 6 does not state that this is the start of the war in heaven.

D - There is nothing in either Rev 6 or 19 that depicts Michael taking a ride of anything.

E - Rev 19:11 clearly depicts Christ, because the Word of God is Christ (with many crowns). It does not depict Michael. When Michael is doing something (such as fighting with his angels against the Adversary and his angels), Michael is clearly stated as being Michael.

Jude speaks of them both in his letter. First he speaks of Christ (using His name), then he later speaks of the arkangel Michael. He does not speak of them as if they are the same person, because they are two different people.


That ride does not end until after Rev 20 is complete. Dan 12:1--It is Michael who stands up for Gods chosen in the last days.

Daniel speaks of Michael as being one of the chief princes. Meaning there is more than one chief prince. Michael is the chief prince that serves God and Christ (the Chosen One of JAH).


Peace again to you.
1Thess 4:16--This is when Jesus returned( not to earth, but to power and glory) Rev 6:1--He receives his crown-- This is called the presence-Matt 24:3-1Cor 15:23-2Pet 1:16
These are just jw doctrines that you are repeating. You did not respond to anything in my post.

1 Thess 4:16 speaks of when Christ returns to the earth. That is why people are spoke of being caught UP to meet Him in the sky.


By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


Look at the words that are bolded and underlined.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.

These are directional words. He will DESCEND from heaven. This has nothing to do with a 'return to power and glory'. This is an actual return. First the dead in Him will rise and then all who belong to Him, who are yet alive and remain on the earth, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Everything in this verse speaks to His actual return. Nothing in this verse even suggests a 'return to power and glory'.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

kjw47
Under Probation
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:37 pm
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1000

Post by kjw47 »

tam wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:56 pm
kjw47 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:34 pm
tam wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:02 pm Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:24 pm
tam wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:13 pm Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:50 pm
Runner wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:34 pm
kjw47 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:49 pm are one in purpose, but Jesus was clear at John 17:3--This means eternal life, their knowing you( Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus---2major points of truth taught by Jesus--The Father is the only true God, and the only true did not come to earth he sent another. See Jesus says you are wrong.
Jesus is Michael, not God.
No, Jesus is not Michael.

If Jesus is Michael, then Michael is God Almighty. There is just no evidence of that anywhere in Scripture.

Feel free to come discuss this in the thread JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY.
viewtopic.php?t=40380

Dan 7:13-15--Someone like a son of man( created)gained access to the ancient of days( Jehovah) and was given a kingship( Jesus)
1Thess 4:16--Upon Jesus return he comes with the voice of the archangel--Does he borrow it from Michael or is it his voice?
He also comes with the trumpet call of God but that does not make Him God.

Michael (the arkangel) announces the return of Christ (the voice of an archangel); the trumpet call announces the return of Christ.


Peace again to you.
You're doing the same thing as people who claim the trinity is true or that Christ is [YHWH]. You are interpreting and reading INTO the text. But the bottom line is that Christ did not teach this. He did not teach that He is Michael the arkangel; He did not teach that He is [YHWH], and He did not teach that He is part of a trinity. The apostles did not teach these things either.


Christ said that He is the Son of God. The Truth. The Way. The Life. The Light (remember that God brought forth the Light). The Amen. The Word of God.


The trumpet announces the ride of the white horse(Rev 6:1)--This is the start of the war in heaven, but notice-he receives his crown, only Jesus gets the crown, yet Michael took that ride--Its the same ride continued at Rev 19:11( Armageddon)-yet Jesus is pictured here.
A - there is no trumpet at Rev 6:1

B - You have overlooked the point. Christ is not God just because he returns with the trumpet call of God. Just as Christ is not an arkangel just because He returns with the voice of an arkangel.

C - Rev 6 does not state that this is the start of the war in heaven.

D - There is nothing in either Rev 6 or 19 that depicts Michael taking a ride of anything.

E - Rev 19:11 clearly depicts Christ, because the Word of God is Christ (with many crowns). It does not depict Michael. When Michael is doing something (such as fighting with his angels against the Adversary and his angels), Michael is clearly stated as being Michael.

Jude speaks of them both in his letter. First he speaks of Christ (using His name), then he later speaks of the arkangel Michael. He does not speak of them as if they are the same person, because they are two different people.


That ride does not end until after Rev 20 is complete. Dan 12:1--It is Michael who stands up for Gods chosen in the last days.

Daniel speaks of Michael as being one of the chief princes. Meaning there is more than one chief prince. Michael is the chief prince that serves God and Christ (the Chosen One of JAH).


Peace again to you.
1Thess 4:16--This is when Jesus returned( not to earth, but to power and glory) Rev 6:1--He receives his crown-- This is called the presence-Matt 24:3-1Cor 15:23-2Pet 1:16
These are just jw doctrines that you are repeating. You did not respond to anything in my post.

1 Thess 4:16 speaks of when Christ returns to the earth. That is why people are spoke of being caught UP to meet Him in the sky.


By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


Look at the words that are bolded and underlined.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.

These are directional words. He will DESCEND from heaven. This has nothing to do with a 'return to power and glory'. This is an actual return. First the dead in Him will rise and then all who belong to Him, who are yet alive and remain on the earth, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Everything in this verse speaks to His actual return. Nothing in this verse even suggests a 'return to power and glory'.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

His rulership descended from heaven at that point, Few listen to him. He comes to earth here at Rev 19:11--the world will not like this, its Armageddon. His rulership began at Rev 6:1=the presence, as all the verses i showed you affirmed.

Post Reply