Is Salvation Mutual?

[SacredBishop]

God was offended by sins, but wanted to forgive them. God birthed Himself into humanity, and offended people until they killed him. Then God raised Himself from the dead, and forgave those who offended Him, by means of offending them until they killed Him. This is perfectly rational, but should we forgive Him for offending us until we killed Him? Is salvation mutual? Does redemption absolve both parties?


For God to be killed He had to bloody well offend people till they hated Him enough to actually do it. Look at how God went about it: Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you blind fools...you brood of vipers...you are tombs filled with dead men's bones and every thing unclean...woe to Jerusalem, not one stone will be left in you...you snakes, how will you escape the damnation of hell...you fools clean the outside of your cups...woman, its not right to feed a dog with children's bread...you are of your father the Devil...you fools and hypocrites...

[Shem Yoshi]

God was offended by sins, but wanted to forgive them. God birthed Himself into humanity, and offended people until they killed him. Then God raised Himself from the dead, and forgave those who offended Him, by means of offending them until they killed Him. This is perfectly rational, but should we forgive Him for offending us until we killed Him? Is salvation mutual? Does redemption absolve both parties?


For God to be killed He had to bloody well offend people till they hated Him enough to actually do it. Look at how God went about it: Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you blind fools...you brood of vipers...you are tombs filled with dead men's bones and every thing unclean...woe to Jerusalem, not one stone will be left in you...you snakes, how will you escape the damnation of hell...you fools clean the outside of your cups...woman, its not right to feed a dog with children's bread...you are of your father the Devil...you fools and hypocrites...

It would be murder to kill someone for offending you. Jesus death was for the crime of Blasphemy for being the Son of God.

[SacredBishop]

God was offended by sins, but wanted to forgive them. God birthed Himself into humanity, and offended people until they killed him. Then God raised Himself from the dead, and forgave those who offended Him, by means of offending them until they killed Him. This is perfectly rational, but should we forgive Him for offending us until we killed Him? Is salvation mutual? Does redemption absolve both parties?


For God to be killed He had to bloody well offend people till they hated Him enough to actually do it. Look at how God went about it: Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you blind fools...you brood of vipers...you are tombs filled with dead men's bones and every thing unclean...woe to Jerusalem, not one stone will be left in you...you snakes, how will you escape the damnation of hell...you fools clean the outside of your cups...woman, its not right to feed a dog with children's bread...you are of your father the Devil...you fools and hypocrites...

It would be murder to kill someone for offending you. Jesus death was for the crime of Blasphemy for being the Son of God.

Not if I wanted them to " murder" me. Theology maintains that God did indeed, in truth, in all actuality, want to " be murdered", and he didn't orchestrate his murder through forcing people to hate him, thus negating free will, but intentionally offended the religious sensibility of the masses to arrange his death.

[Shem Yoshi]

God was offended by sins, but wanted to forgive them. God birthed Himself into humanity, and offended people until they killed him. Then God raised Himself from the dead, and forgave those who offended Him, by means of offending them until they killed Him. This is perfectly rational, but should we forgive Him for offending us until we killed Him? Is salvation mutual? Does redemption absolve both parties?


For God to be killed He had to bloody well offend people till they hated Him enough to actually do it. Look at how God went about it: Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you blind fools...you brood of vipers...you are tombs filled with dead men's bones and every thing unclean...woe to Jerusalem, not one stone will be left in you...you snakes, how will you escape the damnation of hell...you fools clean the outside of your cups...woman, its not right to feed a dog with children's bread...you are of your father the Devil...you fools and hypocrites...

It would be murder to kill someone for offending you. Jesus death was for the crime of Blasphemy for being the Son of God.

Not if I wanted them to " murder" me. Theology maintains that God did indeed, in truth, in all actuality, want to " be murdered", and he didn't orchestrate his murder through forcing people to hate him, thus negating free will, but intentionally offended the religious sensibility of the masses to arrange his death.

Well Jesus showed that he didnt want to die, as he prayed to God on the mount of olives to take it away from Him. And I dont think His motive of calling the Pharisees hypocrites was so he could die. I think it was to expose unrighteousness in the Pharisees.

[SacredBishop]

God was offended by sins, but wanted to forgive them. God birthed Himself into humanity, and offended people until they killed him. Then God raised Himself from the dead, and forgave those who offended Him, by means of offending them until they killed Him. This is perfectly rational, but should we forgive Him for offending us until we killed Him? Is salvation mutual? Does redemption absolve both parties?


For God to be killed He had to bloody well offend people till they hated Him enough to actually do it. Look at how God went about it: Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you blind fools...you brood of vipers...you are tombs filled with dead men's bones and every thing unclean...woe to Jerusalem, not one stone will be left in you...you snakes, how will you escape the damnation of hell...you fools clean the outside of your cups...woman, its not right to feed a dog with children's bread...you are of your father the Devil...you fools and hypocrites...

It would be murder to kill someone for offending you. Jesus death was for the crime of Blasphemy for being the Son of God.

Not if I wanted them to " murder" me. Theology maintains that God did indeed, in truth, in all actuality, want to " be murdered", and he didn't orchestrate his murder through forcing people to hate him, thus negating free will, but intentionally offended the religious sensibility of the masses to arrange his death.

Well Jesus showed that he didnt want to die, as he prayed to God on the mount of olives to take it away from Him. And I dont think His motive of calling the Pharisees hypocrites was so he could die. I think it was to expose unrighteousness in the Pharisees.

Mainstream theology states that Jesus came to earth to die for sins. You said " Jesus didn't want to die", thus by implication God turned Jesus's misfortune, which was unplanned and unwanted, into a happy ending. This is definitely not orthodox Christian theology. On any event, do you believe this redemption absolves both parties?

[Shem Yoshi]

God was offended by sins, but wanted to forgive them. God birthed Himself into humanity, and offended people until they killed him. Then God raised Himself from the dead, and forgave those who offended Him, by means of offending them until they killed Him. This is perfectly rational, but should we forgive Him for offending us until we killed Him? Is salvation mutual? Does redemption absolve both parties?


For God to be killed He had to bloody well offend people till they hated Him enough to actually do it. Look at how God went about it: Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you blind fools...you brood of vipers...you are tombs filled with dead men's bones and every thing unclean...woe to Jerusalem, not one stone will be left in you...you snakes, how will you escape the damnation of hell...you fools clean the outside of your cups...woman, its not right to feed a dog with children's bread...you are of your father the Devil...you fools and hypocrites...

It would be murder to kill someone for offending you. Jesus death was for the crime of Blasphemy for being the Son of God.

Not if I wanted them to " murder" me. Theology maintains that God did indeed, in truth, in all actuality, want to " be murdered", and he didn't orchestrate his murder through forcing people to hate him, thus negating free will, but intentionally offended the religious sensibility of the masses to arrange his death.

Well Jesus showed that he didnt want to die, as he prayed to God on the mount of olives to take it away from Him. And I dont think His motive of calling the Pharisees hypocrites was so he could die. I think it was to expose unrighteousness in the Pharisees.

Mainstream theology states that Jesus came to earth to die for sins. You said " Jesus didn't want to die", thus by implication God turned Jesus's misfortune, which was unplanned and unwanted, into a happy ending. This is definitely not orthodox Christian theology.

I am simply pointing out that directly before Jesus death he prayed
42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” (Luke 22)

I do believe Jesus came and fulfilled prophecy by dying, I am just point out what Jesus prayed right before His death. It could be true that Jesus didnt want to die, and prayed "take this cup from me", but at the same time surrendered to the will of God.

On any event, do you believe this redemption absolves both parties?

I dont know what you mean by that

[SacredBishop]

Does redemption cover our offenses alone, or both ours and God's? Remember the bit about God offending people till they hated Him enough to kill him? God didn't just zap down from heaven and get killed, he had to verbally offend people until they were adequately irritated to actually kill him.

[Purple Knight]

God was offended by sins, but wanted to forgive them. God birthed Himself into humanity, and offended people until they killed him. Then God raised Himself from the dead, and forgave those who offended Him, by means of offending them until they killed Him. This is perfectly rational, but should we forgive Him for offending us until we killed Him? Is salvation mutual? Does redemption absolve both parties?

To the best of my knowledge, the canon is that God can't sin. All sins are against God alone. You kill a man? You don't sin against that man. That man has no rights except those granted by God. But it bothers God for you to kill his creations so you've sinned against God.

So there's nothing for us to forgive.

[Shem Yoshi]

Does redemption cover our offenses alone, or both ours and God's? Remember the bit about God offending people till they hated Him enough to kill him? God didn't just zap down from heaven and get killed, he had to verbally offend people until they were adequately irritated to actually kill him.

I dont believe saying truthful things is an "offense" God needs to be redeemed from.
That would be like blaming a judge for making a criminal mad who was convicted of a crime.

[SacredBishop]

Again, God didn't just zap down from heaven and get killed. He intentionally offended people's religious sensibility, until they had enough and slew him altogether. If you say God unintentionally offended people, then you denounce his omniscience. If you say its irrelevant to God that people were offended, then why did he bother to offend them in the first place if its irrelevant? Not to mention his lack of social etiquette. It seems he intentionally offended people, with the express purpose that they kill him for it. I assume redemption covers all offenses, including his. Lest you limit the efficacy of atonement altogether?