JESUS IS NOT GOD

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

MissKate13
Sage
Posts: 529
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:55 am
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 60 times

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1021

Post by MissKate13 »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:26 pm I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?
No. The quotations do NOT show Jesus was not God. They show that Jesus was the Son of God, who was IN SUBJECTION to His Father.

Yes. I believe Jesus claimed to be God. Saying the divine name aloud in the first century would have been a serious offense. However, by declaring “before Abraham was born, I am,” (John 8:58) Jesus was claiming to be God. The Jews understood that’s what Jesus meant. As a result, they took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy.

In John 10:30, Jesus says “I and the Father are one.” The Jews understood that He was claiming to be God, and for this reason, they tried to stone Him. ”You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33) The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming. He was claiming deity.

I have answered your questions. Now please answer mine. Was Jesus “deity?”
”For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24

Eloi
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1775
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 213 times
Contact:

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1022

Post by Eloi »

When the Jewish religious leaders told Jesus the following in John 10:33:

ὅτι σὺ __ because you
ἄνθρωπος ὢν __ a man being
ποιεῖς σεαυτὸν __ make yourself
θεόν __ a god

... they are telling him that they, the Jews, do not have demigods like the Greeks did.

Modern Christendom teaches otherwise, committing the blasphemy of which Jesus was menacingly accused and saying at the same time that Jesus was really a blasphemous.

Many who claim to be Christians today accuse Jesus of being a blasphemer when they attribute to him that he was actually saying the lie of being a pagan-style demigod.

Jesus never said he was God or a demigod.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: Re:

Post #1023

Post by onewithhim »

Runner wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:23 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:44 pmHe is the father of his disciples the way Paul was a father to the people he preached to and who came into the Truth and accepted Jesus. Paul said, "I am appealing to you for my child, whose father I became while in prison." (Philemon 10) Paul was not married and had no biological children, but he had children in the sense that they listened to him and became believers. It is the same with Jesus as mentioned at Isaiah 9:6.

And the Bible says that Jesus is called "eternal father," not THE Father.
Nope. It says THE Everlasting Father.

There's only one of those, PAL.

And your post is a perfect example of the depths of denial your kind will go to. You ask for proof, you are given just that and you take what you are presented with and twist it, flip it, turn it inside out and upside down, claim it's been mistranslated or that it simply doesn't exist.

That's what it takes to not see the Truth that Jesus Christ is God.

You have a very serious issue - the most serious.

I am sorry for you.
Don't be sorry for me. I feel very sorry that you have such a shallow understanding of the Scriptures.

Remember that Hebrew has no capital letters or punctuation. With that in mind, The Jewish Bible/ Tanakh the Holy Scriptures renders Isaiah 9:6,7 as: "he has been named 'the mighty god is planning grace; the eternal father, a peaceable ruler.'" We have already discussed what "mighty god" means and it is not that the Messiah is God; he is a powerful important individual. And the Jewish Bible doesn't seem to think that "mighty god" applies to the person of the Messiah. The message FROM the Messiah is that God is planning something that will redeem mankind. "Eternal father" has also been discussed. Jesus is an eternal father, as I reasoned above, but not THE Father who is El Shaddai and Father of everything, including the Messiah.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1024

Post by onewithhim »

MissKate13 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:40 am
onewithhim wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:26 pm I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?
No. The quotations do NOT show Jesus was not God. They show that Jesus was the Son of God, who was IN SUBJECTION to His Father.

Yes. I believe Jesus claimed to be God. Saying the divine name aloud in the first century would have been a serious offense. However, by declaring “before Abraham was born, I am,” (John 8:58) Jesus was claiming to be God. The Jews understood that’s what Jesus meant. As a result, they took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy.

In John 10:30, Jesus says “I and the Father are one.” The Jews understood that He was claiming to be God, and for this reason, they tried to stone Him. ”You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33) The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming. He was claiming deity.

I have answered your questions. Now please answer mine. Was Jesus “deity?”
Interesting viewpoint. Thank you for taking the time to set forth your understandings.

I agree that Jesus is the Son of God, not God, and he was/is in subjection to his Father.

People who uttered the divine name in Jesus' day might be in trouble with the Jewish religious leaders, but certainly not Jesus and his disciples. It was a silly superstition that the Pharisees burdened the people with; imagine God saying that no one should pronounce His name! How foolish. He actually said explicitly that people should use His name.

"And God said further to Moses, 'Thus shall you speak to the Israelites: YHWH [Jehovah], the God of your fathers...has sent me to you: This shall be My name forever, this My appellation for all eternity.'" (Tanakh the Holy Scriptures/ the new JPS translation; Exodus 3:15)

Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was, I Am." He said, "Before Abraham was born, I existed." He didn't speak with such a mishmash of tenses as you would have him say. This subject warrants more research. Please do so. Jesus did not claim to be God. The Jews wanted to kill him because he claimed to be older than Abraham. ' What impertinence, ' they undoubtedly thought. Now, when he said "I and the Father are one," the Jews certainly did not think he was saying he was Almighty God. To be "one" with someone, that means that you are thinking in agreement. This is the clear case of the disciples being "one" with Jesus and the Father. (John 17:21-23) So to be "one," you'd be agreeing with the other person; thinking in unison. Jesus said that he prayed that the disciples would be "one" with himself and the Father. Are the disciples also God?

Jesus was diety in the sense that he was greater than a common man and held the position of authority over all of mankind and the angels after he died and was resurrected. After all, "god" merely means a powerful important and revered individual. Jesus is referred to as a "mighty god" in Isaiah, but not THE Almighty God. Jehovah is Almighty God, the only true God (John 17:3), and Jesus is His Son (and, you might say, second in command). They are not equal.

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1025

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:44 pm
tam wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:17 am Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:32 pm
tam wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:33 pm Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:09 pm
tam wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:56 pm
kjw47 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:34 pm
tam wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:02 pm Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:24 pm
tam wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:13 pm Peace to you,



He also comes with the trumpet call of God but that does not make Him God.

Michael (the arkangel) announces the return of Christ (the voice of an archangel); the trumpet call announces the return of Christ.


Peace again to you.
You're doing the same thing as people who claim the trinity is true or that Christ is [YHWH]. You are interpreting and reading INTO the text. But the bottom line is that Christ did not teach this. He did not teach that He is Michael the arkangel; He did not teach that He is [YHWH], and He did not teach that He is part of a trinity. The apostles did not teach these things either.


Christ said that He is the Son of God. The Truth. The Way. The Life. The Light (remember that God brought forth the Light). The Amen. The Word of God.


The trumpet announces the ride of the white horse(Rev 6:1)--This is the start of the war in heaven, but notice-he receives his crown, only Jesus gets the crown, yet Michael took that ride--Its the same ride continued at Rev 19:11( Armageddon)-yet Jesus is pictured here.
A - there is no trumpet at Rev 6:1

B - You have overlooked the point. Christ is not God just because he returns with the trumpet call of God. Just as Christ is not an arkangel just because He returns with the voice of an arkangel.

C - Rev 6 does not state that this is the start of the war in heaven.

D - There is nothing in either Rev 6 or 19 that depicts Michael taking a ride of anything.

E - Rev 19:11 clearly depicts Christ, because the Word of God is Christ (with many crowns). It does not depict Michael. When Michael is doing something (such as fighting with his angels against the Adversary and his angels), Michael is clearly stated as being Michael.

Jude speaks of them both in his letter. First he speaks of Christ (using His name), then he later speaks of the arkangel Michael. He does not speak of them as if they are the same person, because they are two different people.


That ride does not end until after Rev 20 is complete. Dan 12:1--It is Michael who stands up for Gods chosen in the last days.

Daniel speaks of Michael as being one of the chief princes. Meaning there is more than one chief prince. Michael is the chief prince that serves God and Christ (the Chosen One of JAH).


Peace again to you.
1Thess 4:16--This is when Jesus returned( not to earth, but to power and glory) Rev 6:1--He receives his crown-- This is called the presence-Matt 24:3-1Cor 15:23-2Pet 1:16
These are just jw doctrines that you are repeating. You did not respond to anything in my post.

1 Thess 4:16 speaks of when Christ returns to the earth. That is why people are spoke of being caught UP to meet Him in the sky.


By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


Look at the words that are bolded and underlined.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.

These are directional words. He will DESCEND from heaven. This has nothing to do with a 'return to power and glory'. This is an actual return. First the dead in Him will rise and then all who belong to Him, who are yet alive and remain on the earth, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Everything in this verse speaks to His actual return. Nothing in this verse even suggests a 'return to power and glory'.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

His rulership descended from heaven at that point,


No. The verse does not say that His rulership descended from heaven. The verse even EMPHASIZES the FACT that Christ HIMSELF descended from heaven.

Christ HIMSELF.

Not Christ, (but only) his rulership.

Not Christ, (but only) his thoughts.

Christ HIMSELF.

The person.


Peace again.

It is speaking to the little flock( Luke 12:32) only these are promised heaven. They are numbered=144,000-The anointed=the bride of Christ.
The great crowd is not promised heaven anywhere. Thus that event occurred starting in 1914. When Rev 6 occurred.
You are again completely ignoring the content of my post. The verses you keep using to support your claims DO NOT say what you claim. Therefore, they DO NOT mean what you claim they mean.

Christ Himself will descend from heaven. That is what the verse states - right there in black and white.



Peace again to you.

Many things in the bible are disguised or partial truth. Like it says all who believe will be saved, but these believe( Matt 7:22-23) but those words at judgement shows they will not be saved. So believing is a partial truth.
By this reasoning, anyone could say anything they wanted about anything written. Christ said the Father is greater than Him? It would be just as valid for a person who believes in the trinity to then say that was just a partial truth. That would be exactly the same as what you are doing in order to defend a doctrine of men.

Christ HIMSELF returns. There is no 'partial truth' about that. He HIMSELF.



In the example you gave (from Matt 7), these ones might have believed that they were serving Him, but could they truly have believed in Him if they did not listen to Him, believe Him (and His words), follow His commands? ("This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him." < - from the Father.) Were they believing in Him or were they believing in men, religion, themselves, a book, tradition, etc?





Peace again to you.
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

kjw47
Under Probation
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:37 pm
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1026

Post by kjw47 »

tam wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:05 pm Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:44 pm
tam wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:17 am Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:32 pm
tam wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:33 pm Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:09 pm
tam wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:56 pm
kjw47 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:34 pm
tam wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:02 pm Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:24 pm
You're doing the same thing as people who claim the trinity is true or that Christ is [YHWH]. You are interpreting and reading INTO the text. But the bottom line is that Christ did not teach this. He did not teach that He is Michael the arkangel; He did not teach that He is [YHWH], and He did not teach that He is part of a trinity. The apostles did not teach these things either.


Christ said that He is the Son of God. The Truth. The Way. The Life. The Light (remember that God brought forth the Light). The Amen. The Word of God.


The trumpet announces the ride of the white horse(Rev 6:1)--This is the start of the war in heaven, but notice-he receives his crown, only Jesus gets the crown, yet Michael took that ride--Its the same ride continued at Rev 19:11( Armageddon)-yet Jesus is pictured here.
A - there is no trumpet at Rev 6:1

B - You have overlooked the point. Christ is not God just because he returns with the trumpet call of God. Just as Christ is not an arkangel just because He returns with the voice of an arkangel.

C - Rev 6 does not state that this is the start of the war in heaven.

D - There is nothing in either Rev 6 or 19 that depicts Michael taking a ride of anything.

E - Rev 19:11 clearly depicts Christ, because the Word of God is Christ (with many crowns). It does not depict Michael. When Michael is doing something (such as fighting with his angels against the Adversary and his angels), Michael is clearly stated as being Michael.

Jude speaks of them both in his letter. First he speaks of Christ (using His name), then he later speaks of the arkangel Michael. He does not speak of them as if they are the same person, because they are two different people.


That ride does not end until after Rev 20 is complete. Dan 12:1--It is Michael who stands up for Gods chosen in the last days.

Daniel speaks of Michael as being one of the chief princes. Meaning there is more than one chief prince. Michael is the chief prince that serves God and Christ (the Chosen One of JAH).


Peace again to you.
1Thess 4:16--This is when Jesus returned( not to earth, but to power and glory) Rev 6:1--He receives his crown-- This is called the presence-Matt 24:3-1Cor 15:23-2Pet 1:16
These are just jw doctrines that you are repeating. You did not respond to anything in my post.

1 Thess 4:16 speaks of when Christ returns to the earth. That is why people are spoke of being caught UP to meet Him in the sky.


By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


Look at the words that are bolded and underlined.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.

These are directional words. He will DESCEND from heaven. This has nothing to do with a 'return to power and glory'. This is an actual return. First the dead in Him will rise and then all who belong to Him, who are yet alive and remain on the earth, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Everything in this verse speaks to His actual return. Nothing in this verse even suggests a 'return to power and glory'.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

His rulership descended from heaven at that point,


No. The verse does not say that His rulership descended from heaven. The verse even EMPHASIZES the FACT that Christ HIMSELF descended from heaven.

Christ HIMSELF.

Not Christ, (but only) his rulership.

Not Christ, (but only) his thoughts.

Christ HIMSELF.

The person.


Peace again.

It is speaking to the little flock( Luke 12:32) only these are promised heaven. They are numbered=144,000-The anointed=the bride of Christ.
The great crowd is not promised heaven anywhere. Thus that event occurred starting in 1914. When Rev 6 occurred.
You are again completely ignoring the content of my post. The verses you keep using to support your claims DO NOT say what you claim. Therefore, they DO NOT mean what you claim they mean.

Christ Himself will descend from heaven. That is what the verse states - right there in black and white.



Peace again to you.

Many things in the bible are disguised or partial truth. Like it says all who believe will be saved, but these believe( Matt 7:22-23) but those words at judgement shows they will not be saved. So believing is a partial truth.
By this reasoning, anyone could say anything they wanted about anything written. Christ said the Father is greater than Him? It would be just as valid for a person who believes in the trinity to then say that was just a partial truth. That would be exactly the same as what you are doing in order to defend a doctrine of men.

Christ HIMSELF returns. There is no 'partial truth' about that. He HIMSELF.



In the example you gave (from Matt 7), these ones might have believed that they were serving Him, but could they truly have believed in Him if they did not listen to Him, believe Him (and His words), follow His commands? ("This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him." < - from the Father.) Were they believing in Him or were they believing in men, religion, themselves, a book, tradition, etc?





Peace again to you.
I believe the term believe means to learn and apply all he teaches. After all the bible is clear-obeying is proof of ones love for God and Jesus. If one believes, then they know 100% every teaching must be learned and applied.

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1027

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:58 pm
tam wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:05 pm Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:44 pm
tam wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:17 am Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:32 pm
tam wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:33 pm Peace to you,
kjw47 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:09 pm
tam wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:56 pm
kjw47 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:34 pm
tam wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:02 pm Peace to you,



You're doing the same thing as people who claim the trinity is true or that Christ is [YHWH]. You are interpreting and reading INTO the text. But the bottom line is that Christ did not teach this. He did not teach that He is Michael the arkangel; He did not teach that He is [YHWH], and He did not teach that He is part of a trinity. The apostles did not teach these things either.


Christ said that He is the Son of God. The Truth. The Way. The Life. The Light (remember that God brought forth the Light). The Amen. The Word of God.





A - there is no trumpet at Rev 6:1

B - You have overlooked the point. Christ is not God just because he returns with the trumpet call of God. Just as Christ is not an arkangel just because He returns with the voice of an arkangel.

C - Rev 6 does not state that this is the start of the war in heaven.

D - There is nothing in either Rev 6 or 19 that depicts Michael taking a ride of anything.

E - Rev 19:11 clearly depicts Christ, because the Word of God is Christ (with many crowns). It does not depict Michael. When Michael is doing something (such as fighting with his angels against the Adversary and his angels), Michael is clearly stated as being Michael.

Jude speaks of them both in his letter. First he speaks of Christ (using His name), then he later speaks of the arkangel Michael. He does not speak of them as if they are the same person, because they are two different people.






Daniel speaks of Michael as being one of the chief princes. Meaning there is more than one chief prince. Michael is the chief prince that serves God and Christ (the Chosen One of JAH).


Peace again to you.
1Thess 4:16--This is when Jesus returned( not to earth, but to power and glory) Rev 6:1--He receives his crown-- This is called the presence-Matt 24:3-1Cor 15:23-2Pet 1:16
These are just jw doctrines that you are repeating. You did not respond to anything in my post.

1 Thess 4:16 speaks of when Christ returns to the earth. That is why people are spoke of being caught UP to meet Him in the sky.


By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


Look at the words that are bolded and underlined.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.

These are directional words. He will DESCEND from heaven. This has nothing to do with a 'return to power and glory'. This is an actual return. First the dead in Him will rise and then all who belong to Him, who are yet alive and remain on the earth, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Everything in this verse speaks to His actual return. Nothing in this verse even suggests a 'return to power and glory'.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

His rulership descended from heaven at that point,


No. The verse does not say that His rulership descended from heaven. The verse even EMPHASIZES the FACT that Christ HIMSELF descended from heaven.

Christ HIMSELF.

Not Christ, (but only) his rulership.

Not Christ, (but only) his thoughts.

Christ HIMSELF.

The person.


Peace again.

It is speaking to the little flock( Luke 12:32) only these are promised heaven. They are numbered=144,000-The anointed=the bride of Christ.
The great crowd is not promised heaven anywhere. Thus that event occurred starting in 1914. When Rev 6 occurred.
You are again completely ignoring the content of my post. The verses you keep using to support your claims DO NOT say what you claim. Therefore, they DO NOT mean what you claim they mean.

Christ Himself will descend from heaven. That is what the verse states - right there in black and white.



Peace again to you.

Many things in the bible are disguised or partial truth. Like it says all who believe will be saved, but these believe( Matt 7:22-23) but those words at judgement shows they will not be saved. So believing is a partial truth.
By this reasoning, anyone could say anything they wanted about anything written. Christ said the Father is greater than Him? It would be just as valid for a person who believes in the trinity to then say that was just a partial truth. That would be exactly the same as what you are doing in order to defend a doctrine of men.

Christ HIMSELF returns. There is no 'partial truth' about that. He HIMSELF.



In the example you gave (from Matt 7), these ones might have believed that they were serving Him, but could they truly have believed in Him if they did not listen to Him, believe Him (and His words), follow His commands? ("This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him." < - from the Father.) Were they believing in Him or were they believing in men, religion, themselves, a book, tradition, etc?





Peace again to you.
I believe the term believe means to learn and apply all he teaches. After all the bible is clear-obeying is proof of ones love for God and Jesus. If one believes, then they know 100% every teaching must be learned and applied.
Therefore it was not a 'partial truth'. Right? You just have to understand what it means to believe in someone.

Just as Christ returning HIMSELF is not a 'partial truth'. The verse ITSELF is emphasizing that Christ HIMSELF returns.


Peace again to you.
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

Bobcat
Apprentice
Posts: 165
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:23 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1028

Post by Bobcat »

When Jesus was here He was God the Father portraying the Son, the servant of God. When He said He was going back to the Father He meant He was going back to being the Father.

User avatar
Diogenes
Guru
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 12:53 pm
Location: Washington
Has thanked: 862 times
Been thanked: 1265 times

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1029

Post by Diogenes »

MissKate13 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:40 am
No. The quotations do NOT show Jesus was not God. They show that Jesus was the Son of God, who was IN SUBJECTION to His Father.
So? Doesn't the Bible teach that all believers are the children of God?

1 John 3:1, "See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
Romans 8:14, For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

Nothing special about Jesus then. He was the Son of God. All who are led by the "Spirit of God" are the sons and daughters of God...
or the non-binary children of God.
It is also worth noting that it's only the Gospel of the anonymous "John" that goes on and on about Jesus being God. In the synoptic gospels, Jesus himself makes no such claim, often referring to himself as 'The Son of Man.'

___________________________________

Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves

— Confucius

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4161
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 175 times
Been thanked: 457 times

Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1030

Post by 2timothy316 »

Bobcat wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:03 pm When Jesus was here He was God the Father portraying the Son, the servant of God. When He said He was going back to the Father He meant He was going back to being the Father.
So when Jesus died, who raised him back to life? Or did he never die? Which means no one paid for our sins.

Post Reply