Apostasy!

[historia]

For those who believe the Early Church fell into apostasy, when did this happen?

If I want to compare early Christian sources that are pre-apostasy with those that are post-apostasy, what date should I set?

[JehovahsWitness]

If the Christian community fell into apostasy as soon as the last apostle died, as several here have suggested, then doesn't that reflect rather poorly on the apostles? It would seem they didn't do a very good job in teaching or succession planning if that was the case.

I don't know what "succession planning" is but the Apostles faithfully upheld their commission to teach as Jesus did, what happened in no way reflected badly on them. Notice what Jesus prophecied...

" “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left"

Jesus is the "man" what he sowed was "fine seed" fine seed produces fine fruit. What happened is their environment would be compromised. Jesus sowed them all together so genuine Christians would be in association and their association would be easy to find. That the Christian congregations (the spiritual environment) was compromised is the fault of those that took the lead after them.

The good seed didn't turn bad, bad seed (corrupt leaders/imitaation Christians) were introduced into association with the good (including those that learnt from the Apostles). Tim was right in that the prophecy said that they both spouted at the same time so the delay between the sowing of the fine and the sowing of the bad was negligible. The good (as a group)started good and would remain good, the bad would remain bad and we can but speculate on any battles for dominancy after permission was granted for them to grow together.

In any case Jesus as the head if the church allowed this to happen for good reason, let us attribute "blame" where it should lie, not with Christ for choosing badly, not with the Apotsles who by all accounts died faithful, not with the genuine disciples throughout the ages that did their best despite the progressively spiritual corruption around them, but at the feet if the Evil one and his religious ministers who will get what they deserve !


JW

[historia]

the church itself has said that it was basically complete by the 9th century

What do you mean by "the church" here?

And if, as you suggested above, we shouldn't give any attention to Christian authors after Clement, Polycarp and Ignatius, doesn't that mean the early Christian community was effectively apostate by the mid-2nd century?

If the Christian community fell into apostasy as soon as the last apostle died, as several here have suggested, then doesn't that reflect rather poorly on the apostles? It would seem they didn't do a very good job in teaching or succession planning if that was the case.

You might as well say that Jesus himself didn't do a very good job then.

Indeed, those who are contending that the early Christian community fell into apostasy after the last apostle died are implying that Jesus didn't do a very good job of picking leaders to carry on his movement.

If a business goes bankrupt shortly after the initial founders pass on, we'd have to conclude the business wasn't doing very well or the founders didn't pick capable leaders to continue the business, right?

[historia]

I don't know what "succession planning" is but the Apostles faithfully upheld their commission to teach as Jesus did, what happened in no way reflected badly on them.

Succession planning is making sure that an organization or project can successfully continue after the initial leaders move on.

If the early Christian community fell into apostasy as soon as the apostles died -- which, let me reiterate is what others have contended here, not you JW -- then clearly the apostles didn't do a good job of finding and picking leaders to carry on the Jesus movement.

The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left

This is neither here nor there, but: I'm always struck by how wooden the NWT sounds. It has no literary quality at all. I mean, I had to pick splinters out of my teeth after reading that.

[JehovahsWitness]

The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left

This is neither here nor there...

For you maybe it's "neither here nor there" but we Jehovahs Witnesses base our beliefs on scripture and this is one of the scriptures. This illustration indicates that the results of JESUS work (namely the appearance if newly established Christians) would be synonymous with the appearance of false Christians. If you are going to attribute blame for not doing a good job because of it, the buck stops with Jesus.

Listen, we both approach our quest for truth from vastly different positions; it seems to me you come at it from a purely academic perspective, and we do so from a scriptural one. We are not adverse to historical and academic support but the bible is the light by which we regard everything.

For us this topic is very simple: Jesus indicated the Christian congregation ie the structured organization (not all Christians) would be corrupted pretty much from its inception. Not from it "planting" but from its "appearance". We can speculate ( as we are) what and how soon after the the death of the Apostles, this became evident and how that translated in the Christian tradition, but in the end, all that is not really that important. If you have a corpse with a knife in its back, how long it took the person to die is a gruesome detail that takes a back seat to who killed him.

Neither Jesus nor the Apostles were responsible the the great Apostacy, Satan was. But if you are going to blame someone else, you're going to have to blame Jesus who, as their leader, allowed it, rather the Apostles.

[JehovahsWitness]

I don't know what "succession planning" is but the Apostles faithfully upheld their commission to teach as Jesus did, what happened in no way reflected badly on them.

Succession planning is making sure that an organization or project can successfully continue after the initial leaders move on.

Thank you for that definition. Well then I suppose scripturally, Jesus didnt propose "succession planning" at least for the Christian congregation (ie the EARTHLY part of God's organization), not least because he [Jesus] remained the one and only leader of the Christian congregetion* (compare Mat 23:10).

Also, as I have said, according to the bible, as far as an organized Christian group, Jesus indicated that while the earth would always have sincere anointed spirit begotten Christians, they would only be regathered together into one identifiable earthly organisation during the final harvest season*. And that would be after a long period of spiritual darkness "while men slept".



* It should be noted that there was no end to " the body of Christians" attached individually to Jesus through faith, that did not cease to exist (nor was it corrupted) what was corrupted and ceased to exist was their pure environment ie a spiritually clean identifable organization in which to gather and worship as a unified group.

JW

[historia]

This is neither here nor there...

For you maybe it's "neither here nor there" but we Jehovahs Witnesses base our beliefs on scripture and this is one of the scriptures.

The "this" I'm referring to here is the comment that followed that statement. I'm just noting, by way of introduction, that my (following) comment on the translation you're using is not germane to our wider conversation.

[onewithhim]

the church itself has said that it was basically complete by the 9th century

What do you mean by "the church" here?

And if, as you suggested above, we shouldn't give any attention to Christian authors after Clement, Polycarp and Ignatius, doesn't that mean the early Christian community was effectively apostate by the mid-2nd century?

If the Christian community fell into apostasy as soon as the last apostle died, as several here have suggested, then doesn't that reflect rather poorly on the apostles? It would seem they didn't do a very good job in teaching or succession planning if that was the case.

You might as well say that Jesus himself didn't do a very good job then.

Indeed, those who are contending that the early Christian community fell into apostasy after the last apostle died are implying that Jesus didn't do a very good job of picking leaders to carry on his movement.

If a business goes bankrupt shortly after the initial founders pass on, we'd have to conclude the business wasn't doing very well or the founders didn't pick capable leaders to continue the business, right?

Jesus was the greatest teacher who ever lived. Yet most people did not follow him. Was that due to a lousy way of teaching? I don't think so. God Himself lost His very first human creations. Evil has a way of overpowering the good, but it won't last too much longer. (And by the "church," I meant the Roman Catholic Church, which branched off of the true faith and was thoroughly apostate.)

[onewithhim]

the church itself has said that it was basically complete by the 9th century

What do you mean by "the church" here?

And if, as you suggested above, we shouldn't give any attention to Christian authors after Clement, Polycarp and Ignatius, doesn't that mean the early Christian community was effectively apostate by the mid-2nd century?

If the Christian community fell into apostasy as soon as the last apostle died, as several here have suggested, then doesn't that reflect rather poorly on the apostles? It would seem they didn't do a very good job in teaching or succession planning if that was the case.

You might as well say that Jesus himself didn't do a very good job then.

Indeed, those who are contending that the early Christian community fell into apostasy after the last apostle died are implying that Jesus didn't do a very good job of picking leaders to carry on his movement.

If a business goes bankrupt shortly after the initial founders pass on, we'd have to conclude the business wasn't doing very well or the founders didn't pick capable leaders to continue the business, right?

Jesus was the greatest teacher who ever lived. Yet most people did not follow him. Was that due to a lousy way of teaching? I don't think so. God Himself lost His very first human creations. Evil has a way of overpowering the good, but it won't last too much longer. (And by the "church," I meant the Roman Catholic Church, which branched off of the true faith and was thoroughly apostate.)