Was Jesus homeless? Matthew 8:20

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Thomas123
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Was Jesus homeless? Matthew 8:20

Post #1

Post by Thomas123 »

Matthew 8:20

Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

Is this quote simply about accomodation or can we reasonably apply metaphor to it?

What do you think?

Thanks!

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Re: Was Jesus homeless? Matthew 8:20

Post #21

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Thomas123 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:30 pm -but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

How feasible is it to suggest that he is saying, ...don't follow me because I haven't a clue where I'm sleeping tonight myself. Why consider anything else?

-Jesus is just shipping across the sea of Galilee and just involves sleeping on the beach for a couple of days, not permanent homelessness.

Isn't that a feasible inference from your musings, T?
Ah. Good point. In Luke it makes a bit of sense as he is leaving his home and can't rely on staying anywhere ...I suppose. in Matthew it makes less sense as he is only on a day or two trip. So it's why I suggested there is no point trying to find a reason other than the one I said - it is an imported quote intended to tell the Christian follower that they have no place outside the group. If I try to answer you in any other way I run into the problem you point out above - it is a nonsensical thing for Jesus to say.
Thomas123 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:45 pm Psalm 91
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust
."

If the Jesus in the narrative were speaking in the manner you allude to, PolytheistWitch, he would have spoken as the psalm does.

In actuality he decries his misfortune!

Thanks!

Again, in the context, even if he is saying that he has no place (in fact he can afford to rent an upper room, even without people offering free accommodation) the point is that anyone following him must give up everything. There is no other message that makes sense.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER on Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Was Jesus homeless? Matthew 8:20

Post #22

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Thomas123 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:47 pm My apologies to both Miles and TRANSPONDER, others,who participated in this pedantic debate experiment.There is little doubt that we could break the forum record with this approach and have Jesus sleeping in a B&B in Blackpool at the end.

This same debate phenomena is occurring simultaneously on another thread on this forum.
The net result of these shenanigans, on my part, is that my currency as a sincere debater is being devalued with every post. There is little benefit to be gleaned by roping in competent debaters to participate in baloney and hypothetical conjecture.

From here on in I will be sincere and explain my own beliefs on this matter and describe the inspiration behind the threads inception. I am tired of this pedanticism.

Thanks!
O:) Look, So long as you stay within ToS you can play it and post as you like. If we don't want to debate, we can stay out. I thought you put some interesting points, and made me think a bit which i always like, even if you were just mucking about :) There are a lot of threads i leave alone if I think there is no point in responding. So you are under no obligation to post to suit me or anyone else. Thanks for your contribution including further ones.

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Re: Was Jesus homeless? Matthew 8:20

Post #23

Post by Thomas123 »

I stated this earlier.....

If this quote can be found to have a generic forefather in any previously available literature for Matthew then it may well be a thing 'planted for purpose' by the writer. Unless this is shown to be the case then we must set about deciphering genius.

Which is it going to be?"



Now, that I have failed to find pretext for it there is a real possibility that the words carry some recalled originality from a Jesus guy. It is an extreme suggestion given the lack of hard evidence for the whole narrative.
I agree with most if not all of your 'musing' ,TRANSPONDER. I share your interest in Verse 22 ,Miles. Is it possible that Matthew used a somehow vaguely recalled Jesus saying about foxes and nests to piece together a 'thing ' with a designed message.

If so we move to metaphor.

Who does the guy being warned about the perils ahead represent, who are the Dead burying the Dead.

I can feel a thinking prophet genius here who was a real human. .....perhaps wishful thinking on my part.
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Re: Was Jesus homeless? Matthew 8:20

Post #24

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Thomas123 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:21 am I stated this earlier.....

If this quote can be found to have a generic forefather in any previously available literature for Matthew then it may well be a thing 'planted for purpose' by the writer. Unless this is shown to be the case then we must set about deciphering genius.

Which is it going to be?"



Now, that I have failed to find pretext for it there is a real possibility that the words carry some recalled originality from a Jesus guy. It is an extreme suggestion given the lack of hard evidence for the whole narrative.
I agree with most if not all of your 'musing' ,TRANSPONDER. I share your interest in Verse 22 ,Miles. Is it possible that Matthew used a somehow vaguely recalled Jesus saying about foxes and nests to piece together a 'thing ' with a designed message.

If so we move to metaphor.

Who does the guy being warned about the perils ahead represent, who are the Dead burying the Dead.

I can feel a thinking prophet genius here who was a real human. .....perhaps wishful thinking on my part.
Thanks!
Various people are going to get various things.

But I get first that there is evidence of a common shared text for Mark, Matthew and Luke, the original shared Gospel. Finally, independently added material

We then have shared imported material, not original, which can be known because, again and again, one doesn't have it. The 'Sermon material'is missing from Mark; the 'Decapolis' material is missing from Luke. I am familiar with the apologetic that there are things that one writer didn't know or didn't think was important, but this fails when it is a really important thing.

e.g the cursing of the fig tree. (shared Matthew/Mark material) How could Luke not have heard of that or thought it not worth mentioning? There are many other examples, and we get this 'Foxes have holes' material not in Mark. It falls into the category as added Matthew/Luke material as it appears in differing contexts. It makes little sense as Jesus telling a prospective follower that they may not have places to stay, but it does work as telling the follower that he should leave his former life, family and home, mainly because Luke adds his own comment about not turning back to show that is the idea behind it.

So, with the excuses that Jesus spoke 'in parables' or there were slips of memory in reporting these sayings, one can argue for it being Jesus original. But for me, it works better - on the evidence - as an imported remark by the early Christian writers (and not the only one) that the ones joining should devote themselves to the Church and leave their former life behind.

Bottom line, one may see a wonderful remark by a real prophet there, but (on the evidence) that is the last thing it looks like to me.

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Re: Was Jesus homeless? Matthew 8:20

Post #25

Post by Thomas123 »

I am feeling original genius here,T.


I study other religions.
I study the plots in literary plays,and poetry.
I study song lyrics, I listen to people talk.

This statement has no pretext, that I have found and it has been left almost intact by the writers.

Help me break it down.

Who is the 'Son of Man'.

It really only makes contextual sense if Jesus is referring to himself. It is odds on that this small section is a plant by the writer to use the original utterance for instruction.
I am reluctant to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so perhaps we can pour this section out first.
Should 'Son of Man', be replaced by I.
Thanks!

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Re: Was Jesus homeless? Matthew 8:20

Post #26

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Thomas123 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:51 am I am feeling original genius here,T.


I study other religions.
I study the plots in literary plays,and poetry.
I study song lyrics, I listen to people talk.

This statement has no pretext, that I have found and it has been left almost intact by the writers.

Help me break it down.

Who is the 'Son of Man'.

It really only makes contextual sense if Jesus is referring to himself. It is odds on that this small section is a plant by the writer to use the original utterance for instruction.
I am reluctant to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so perhaps we can pour this section out first.
Should 'Son of Man', be replaced by I.
Thanks!
If I am correct that this is ("Q") material imported into different contexts by Matthew and Luke, then Matthew is doubtless the original form and Luke added the rider about not turning back to make it clear. Matthew probably thought he was adding a real record of what Jesus said. I don't think it was as - as you point out - it makes no sense as Jesus and his lads and their group of female companions, Luke tells us, could rent an inn or stay with admirers. But it makes sense as a meaning that Luke clarifies - follow Jesus, leave everyone else behind.

Now I may be wrong (we could check, hey? :) but I believe that Jesus refers to the Son of man and maybe other epithets in the third person. As to who the son of man is, I have a theory.... :roll: ..... that it means the spirit of Adam. (Adam = man) and Paul seems to explain that Adam in spirit came to correct by obedience the death - dealing sin of disobedience. Thus it would make sense if Jesus the man would refer to the spirit within (which Paul again suggests is messianic, not divine/godly) as someone not himself.

Whatever...it is what it is, whyever it is.

P.s Yes. in all 4 gospels 'the son of man' (clearly referencing Jesus) is always in the third person.. Luke 22:48 but Jesus asked him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?” When we see it (often ) in Ezekiel it seems to refer to a human but a particular one here, with prophetic powers, who is the writer.

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Re: Was Jesus homeless? Matthew 8:20

Post #27

Post by Thomas123 »

Matthew 8
18 When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. 19 Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.”

20 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

21 Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”

22 But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”


Matthew is in full flow here, He has obviously gathered remnants together and he is attempting coherence.

He creates tension. The evening is drawing in. Jesus has performed every type of miracle and he is about to do more. He is tired and becoming tetchy and sharp in his discourse.( understandably so) He is being overcome with requests and he makes a quick exit. This part may have happened. There might have been a memory of this momentous day somewhere and a vague memory of Jesus's words.

Maybe he is saying,.....

You can follow me if you like, but have you any idea what you are signing up for, I haven't even got a place to rest myself, and as for you , either come now or don't, I'm getting out of here on this boat.

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Re: Was Jesus homeless? Matthew 8:20

Post #28

Post by TRANSPONDER »

[Replying to Thomas123 in post #27]

But that doesn't work unless you dismiss Luke as lying when he says they are setting out on the road to Jerusalem. And Mark of course says none of this when they set out by boat.

While it is easy enough to dress it up mas a costume dramatisation, you have to choose which script is correct. That's why I say it is screenplay and not a record of what really happened. It's why to me,discrepancies and contradictions are key to understanding the construction of the gospels, and without that, then we get the usual pick and mix gospel story with a lot on the cutting -room floor.

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Re: Was Jesus homeless? Matthew 8:20

Post #29

Post by Thomas123 »

We will get nowhere with Luke, he is generally rubbish, ...maybe an afterthought.eg Luke 13:32, he is calling Herod a fox "Go tell that fox,... and attributing the words to Jesus?.

There are believable elements in the Matthew account. This Jesus preacher guy is often swamped by crowds. They are invariably desperate and demanding. His entourage is chaotic and the levels of human stupidity that he encounters are draining.

This is consistent,TRANSPONDER.

There is tension and frustration and fear in this man. Things are spiralling out of control and the options he once had during a desert retreat have long since vanished. I think the words in the quote are spontaneous brilliance from a great teacher and that they flowed from the depth of his being, at least one time in his short preaching journey.

I avoid Luke like I do Covid, T.

Here is Luke confirming my earlier point.

44Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. ...

He thinks that Jesus is referring to himself with this phrase, ie it is he (Jesus)who has no digs for the night in Matthew,...not any son of Adam, man, that you suggested T.

I dislike Luke less now!....go Luke!

ps: "If you don't know that digs means where you live, the same as pad and crib, there's no hiding it, man, you're over 25!"😜

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Re: Was Jesus homeless? Matthew 8:20

Post #30

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Thomas123 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:45 pm We will get nowhere with Luke, he is generally rubbish, ...maybe an afterthought.eg Luke 13:32, he is calling Herod a fox "Go tell that fox,... and attributing the words to Jesus?.

There are believable elements in the Matthew account. This Jesus preacher guy is often swamped by crowds. They are invariably desperate and demanding. His entourage is chaotic and the levels of human stupidity that he encounters are draining.

This is consistent,TRANSPONDER.

There is tension and frustration and fear in this man. Things are spiralling out of control and the options he once had during a desert retreat have long since vanished. I think the words in the quote are spontaneous brilliance from a great teacher and that they flowed from the depth of his being, at least one time in his short preaching journey.

I avoid Luke like I do Covid, T.

Here is Luke confirming my earlier point.

44Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. ...

He thinks that Jesus is referring to himself with this phrase, ie it is he (Jesus)who has no digs for the night in Matthew,...not any son of Adam, man, that you suggested T.

I dislike Luke less now!....go Luke!

ps: "If you don't know that digs means where you live, the same as pad and crib, there's no hiding it, man, you're over 25!"😜
Luke is fraud of one kind...Matthew another, John a third. None really beat the others from dross. And as I said, Matthew and the rest have son of man in the third person and are evidently (I'd argue) talking about the spirit that is trundling Jesus the man about the landscape and keeping quite a bit of information from him when needful, it seems.

I continue to say that this is Christian -authorship screenplay and imposing dramatic scenario on Jesus stood here, said that and everyone went 'Yeah!' is reading too much in. I see (with cynicism) the insistence of massive crowds following Jesus, and yet I see no convincing evidence that anyone had heard of him before the Christians started telling his story. How did they hear him before the loudspeaker was invented?

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