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to jehova's witness and those ressurection believers

Post #1

Post by luearts »

priest: join the christianity and you will be saved
atheist: if i know god and follow his teaching then ill be saved?
priest: yes
atheist: what if i dont know god?
priest: he forgives the poor sould and given another chance
atheir: then why did you tell me?

this may not apply to all christians.

i do believe in god because i feel like i know and feel his existence. perhaps it is the result of growing up as a christian.

how can you really prove that god exists? must death be the answer of knowing everything? but if the bible is right, you will be put to as sleep untill resurection. by then you will know the truth. right now, is the existence of god questionable? can the bible really prove anything? what if the bible was made by philisophers who want to sace people off in order to behave? what if the bible is not as old as we may think it is? still, no one can really tell but faith alone let a person believe whatever this person learns. is god really letting all the disasters happen or is the devil is just as strong? is nature supposed to kill thousands of lives? is mankind just abusive? how can we prove god's existence?

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Re: to jehova's witness and those ressurection believers

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

luearts wrote:priest: join the christianity and you will be saved
atheist: if i know god and follow his teaching then ill be saved?
priest: yes
atheist: what if i dont know god?
priest: he forgives the poor sould and given another chance
atheir: then why did you tell me?

this may not apply to all christians.
I'm afraid I don't quite get the point of the conversation depicted above. Perhaps you can state your point/question and I'll try and address it.
luearts wrote:how can you really prove that god exists?
Simple logic. Where there is design there is a designer. The universe, earth and we ourselves show evidence of design and purpose, there is no other logical explanation for our presence.
luearts wrote:must death be the answer of knowing everything?
I don't quite understand this question but I presume you are saying "we'll find out for sure if there is a God when we die" ie then all doubt will be removed. However I personally believe death is the opposite of life and that there is no 'knowing' or 'learning' anything in a state of complete inexistence (see Ecc 9:5). The way to "know" anything is to learn about it by taking in information while you are alive (John 17:3)

luearts wrote: if the bible is right, you will be put to as sleep untill resurection.
Exactly right.
luearts wrote: right now, is the existence of god questionable? can the bible really prove anything?
No, the existence of God (an intelligence creator is not "questionable" by anyone that applys true logic. The bible cannot "prove" the existence of God any more than a cookbook can prove the existence of a cake. It is a guide to thinking and actions which, if followed will lead honest hearted individuals to God. As Jupiter Hammon (American Poet) put it, "The Bible is a revelation of the mind and will of God to men. Therein we may learn, what God is." I would emphasis not THAT God is what God is, his nature and purpose.

That having been said, the bible in itself holds undeniable proof of its divine origins and in doing so provides added reasons for belief in the existence of a loving Creator.
luearts wrote: what if the bible was made by philisophers who want to sace** people off in order to behave?
In order to "what" people? I know its a typo there** but I cannot think what word you meant to type. Anyway, the bible is clearly not the product of mere human thinking and its contents (not least encouraging individuals not to lean on human thinking and philosophies) hardly gives evidence of a book written (inspired or corrupted) by philosophers.
luearts wrote: what if the bible is not as old as we may think it is?
No one knows exactly how old the bible is, but truth is not dependent on age, I don't really understand the relevance of it turning out not to be as old as previously believed; even if the bible were not as 'old as we may think' it certainly is many thousands of years old since we have many thousands of ancient copies that can be dated even if approximately.

luearts wrote: still, no one can really tell but faith alone let a person believe whatever this person learns.


I'm sorry you'll have to restate this, I don't understand the sentence.


luearts wrote: is god really letting all the disasters happen or is the devil is just as strong? is nature supposed to kill thousands of lives?
Satan the Devil cannot logically be as strong as the Creator. God (Jehovah) is the source of all life and is called in scripture ALmighty, meaning there is no limit to his power. No one (including Satan) can match God immense power and strenght. Anything Jehovah permits he permits (not because he is powerless to prevent it) but because in his wisom he choses to.

Although God has in the past used the forces of nature to destroy individuals he deemed as unworthy of life, this was the exception rather than the rule. In short, "natural disasters" are just that, blind forces of nature undirected by God. God is not using natural disasters to *punish* people.
luearts wrote: is mankind just abusive?
Very often yes.
luearts wrote: how can we prove god's existence?
You cannot have physical evidence of the person of God but the universe and life around us provides undeniable evidence of his majesty, wisdom and purpose.

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Re: to jehova's witness and those ressurection believers

Post #3

Post by McCulloch »

luearts wrote: how can you really prove that god exists?
JehovahsWitness wrote: Simple logic. Where there is design there is a designer. The universe, earth and we ourselves show evidence of design and purpose, there is no other logical explanation for our presence.
Where is the evidence that the universe, earth or humans were deliberately designed?
luearts wrote: right now, is the existence of god questionable? can the bible really prove anything?
JehovahsWitness wrote: No, the existence of God (an intelligence creator is not "questionable" by anyone that applys true logic).
You have a poor understanding of logic. Bertrand Russell, for whatever disagreements you may have with him, was first and foremost a world class logician. He was also an atheist.
JehovahsWitness wrote: It [the Bible] is a guide to thinking and actions which, if followed will lead honest hearted individuals to God.
The conclusion is that those who have not been led to God are either dishonest or have not looked at the Bible.
JehovahsWitness wrote: That having been said, the bible in itself holds undeniable proof of its divine origins and in doing so provides added reasons for belief in the existence of a loving Creator.
The Bible contains undeniable proof of its divine origins? Really! Please indicate just one or two of these proofs. Pick the best examples.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Satan the Devil cannot logically be as strong as the Creator. God (Jehovah) is the source of all life and is called in scripture Almighty, meaning there is no limit to his power. No one (including Satan) can match God immense power and strength. Anything Jehovah permits he permits (not because he is powerless to prevent it) but because in his wisdom he chooses to.
Why then is there an adversary to God? Why would God allow anyone to thwart his will?
JehovahsWitness wrote: You cannot have physical evidence of the person of God but the universe and life around us provides undeniable evidence of his majesty, wisdom and purpose.
You toss around the term undeniable rather freely.
Do you think that creating an almost indescribably vast universe so that humans would have a small habitable space on the surface of one small satellite of one otherwise unremarkable star is evidence of God's purpose?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Re: to jehova's witness and those ressurection believers

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

McCulloch wrote:Where is the evidence that the universe, earth or humans were deliberately designed?
#QUESTION Does the universe show evidence of intelligence design?

When is design not designed?

There is a popular saying "If looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck... chances are, its a duck" in other words, we can logically draw conclusions about something based on the elements that characterize it. That is EXCEPT if those elements point us in a direction we find unacceptable; in which case "if it looks, waddles and quacks like a duck it a duck-like creature that is a perfect immitation of a duck but NOT actually a duck".

This is the case with the design we see in the physical universe around us.

Design, according to on popular online dictionary is defined as: The purposeful or inventive arrangement of parts or details; its verb (to design) means being defined as "To create or contrive for a particular purpose or effect/To create or execute in an artistic or highly skilled manner

Obviously the idea of creating "for a particular purpose", "purposely arranging in parts or details" implies both intelligence and intent and is therefore incompatible with the idea of a universe that came in the total absence of both. Therefore this NECESSITATES finding an althernative, a "looks like a duck but isn't one" theory that proposes taht obvious features than in all known cases are the result of intent, purpose and intelligence CAN come about by blind chance. In short, that an explosion (or a sting of explosions) in a metal factory, given enough time and a pinch of luck will eventually produce a boeing 747.

Does the universe show evidence of design?

ORDER

Scientists "find it mysterious that the universe was created in such a higly order condition" -- Astrophysicist, Alan Lightman

few sysemizations in the history of science can rival the periodic concept as a broad revelation of the order of the physical world... whatever new elements may be discovered in the future it is certain they will find a place in the periodic system, confirming to its order and exhibiting the proper familial characteristics" -- The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Schience & technology


Maths and the Universe - Kepler's 3rd Law (slideshow)


BEAUTY

"To those who do not know mathematics it is difficult to get across a real feeling as to the beauty, the deepest beauty, of nature ... If you want to learn about nature, to appreciate nature, it is necessary to understand the language that she speaks in" -- Richard Feynman (American physicist known for his work in the path integral formulation of quantum mechanics)

Purposeful Design or Mindless Process? 1 of 2

McCulloch wrote:The conclusion is that those who have not been led to God are either dishonest or have not looked at the Bible.
It takes more than "looking at the bible" to find the truth therein - I would better say, have not been afforded the opportunity to learn the truths from the bible.

McCulloch wrote:The Bible contains undeniable proof of its divine origins? Really! Please indicate just one or two of these proofs. Pick the best examples.

We know the bible is the Word of God for three main reasons

* it is historically and scientifically accurate.
* it contains practical advice with proven benefits for those that applied it
* It contains specific prophecies that can be verified as having come true

Further

*its candor and internal harmony
*its long history and stuggle to survive
....... also adds weight to the claim it is "a book for mankind".

No other book embodies ALL of the above criteria.

BIBLE PROPHECIES

There are hundreds of prophecies in the bible, some of them extremely specific. For example:

** Prophecy: THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM: * Prophecy: “A time is coming when everything in your palace, which your ancestors have stored up to this day, will be carried off to Babylon; nothing will be left behind.’�—Isaiah 39:5, 6, prophesied c. 732 B.C.E.
“I am going to . . . bring them [the Babylonians] against this land and its inhabitants . . . This whole land shall be a desolate ruin. And those nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.�—Jeremiah 25:9, 11, prophesied b. 625 B.C.E.
==>Fulfillment— 607 B.C.E. (586 B.C.E. according to most secular chronologies): Babylon destroyed Jerusalem after a year and a half siege. The city and temple were razed, and the Jews themselves were carried off to Babylon.

** Prophecy: THE NAME OF ISRAELS LIBERATOR AND THE DATE OF LIBERATION: Isaiah 44:24-28: "the cities of Judah, ‘They will be rebuilt, ..... Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out’" prophesied c. 732 B.C.E.
==>Fulfillment— Jews released by Cyrus in 539 as prophecied, exactly seventy years after their being taken into capitivey. Historical evidence: The Cyrus Cylinder

**Prophecy: THE DIVERSION OF THE EUPHRATES & UNDEFENDED GATES OF THE CAPITAL (during the Persian invasion of Babylon) "must be dried up," and that "the gates [of Babylon] will not be shut."—Jeremiah 50:38; Isaiah 13:17-19; 44:27-45:1.
==>Fulfillment—These specific details were fulfilled, as the historian Herodotus reported.

**Prophecy: THE EMERGENCE OF GREECE AS A WORLD POWER AFTER MEDO-PERSIA (and the early death of Alexandra the Great, and his succession by 4 of his Generals) " There will yet be three kings[...] the fourth one will amass greater riches than all [others]. [...]the kingdom of Greece... his kingdom will be broken and be divided toward the four winds of the heavens". - Daniel 11: 1, 2, 4)
prophesied c. 536 bc
==>Fulfillment (200 years later) — 323 - 301 bc
historical texts of Plutarch and Ptolemy (and others...)

Further reading
http://www.watchtower.org/e/19990715/article_02.htm
McCulloch wrote: [Why] is there an adversary to God? Why would God allow anyone to thwart his will?
God's will was not thwarted, the fulfillment was temporarily delayed and the plan adjusted accordingly.

#QUESTION Why didn't God just destroy the Devil?

GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY - THE UNIVERSAL ISSUE

Before God created humans he created millions, possibly billions of spirit creatures. These intelligent free moral agents were ultimately faced with exactly the same issues as humans, would they voluntarily adhere to divine rule or rebel and seek an existence of total independence. Although created perfect and without fault or defect, angels were free to rebel against God's authority and this is exactly what one of them did.

The issues raised by this rebellion would not disappear by destroying the rebell. Millions of others were watching and would quickly grasp the issues at stake. The angel that became known as "the devil" questioned (NOT God's power but..) God's right to INSIST that He (God) alone being recognised as the one universal sovereign. No system, human or angelic, can exist without a recognised and respected order, this issue had to be settled.

--Would an alterative system work better?
--Would humans chose angelic authority over that of their Creator if given a CHOICE
in short...
--Whose rule is best? Angelic? satanic?Human? an angelic-human collaboration? Divine?

To illustrate, if the oldest child in a family wanted to leave home and "go it alone" what would the other children watching think if the Father took out a gun and killed him instantly? Would they not think their father a tyrant? Wouldn't one by one the other children make a bid for independence? Should the Father kill all his children one by one just because they said they wanted out?

Satan challenged, not if God was stronger or not , (which could have been settled by God squashing the devil on the spot ) but whether he (the devil) would make a better ruler of the earth than the Creator of it. The only wise thing was to let the devil try and later, if he failed and it was clear that the creator was the best ruler, then he could do away with the devil without risking others ever legitamately raising the same issues again and thus ensuring universal peace for all eternity.

The legal precedent had to be established and this would take time, a LOT of time. We are living in that time and have been for thousands of years.

Why let satan rule the world? (slideshow)



McCulloch wrote: Do you think that creating an almost indescribably vast universe so that humans would have a small habitable space on the surface of one small satellite of one otherwise unremarkable star is evidence of God's purpose?
I don't know if I would call that "evidence" of God's purpose. It simply IS God's purpose.

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Re: to jehova's witness and those ressurection believers

Post #5

Post by Goat »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
McCulloch wrote:Where is the evidence that the universe, earth or humans were deliberately designed?
#QUESTION Does the universe show evidence of intelligence design?

When is design not designed?
When it has natural filters in place to 'mold' the results. If you have simple rules to use as filters, then you can get complexity without having design.

There is a popular saying "If looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck... chances are, its a duck" in other words, we can logically draw conclusions about something based on the elements that characterize it. That is EXCEPT if those elements point us in a direction we find unacceptable; in which case "if it looks, waddles and quacks like a duck it a duck-like creature that is a perfect immitation of a duck but NOT actually a duck".

This is the case with the design we see in the physical universe around us.


Design, according to on popular online dictionary is defined as: The purposeful or inventive arrangement of parts or details; its verb (to design) means being defined as "To create or contrive for a particular purpose or effect/To create or execute in an artistic or highly skilled manner
So, where is the actual evidence that there is 'purpose or inventive arrangement' in the details? I can demonstrate complexity due to simple rules and non-intelligent filters.. Can you show purposeful or inventive arrangement?
Obviously the idea of creating "for a particular purpose", "purposely arranging in parts or details" implies both intelligence and intent and is therefore incompatible with the idea of a universe that came in the total absence of both. Therefore this NECESSITATES finding an althernative, a "looks like a duck but isn't one" theory that proposes taht obvious features than in all known cases are the result of intent, purpose and intelligence CAN come about by blind chance. In short, that an explosion (or a sting of explosions) in a metal factory, given enough time and a pinch of luck will eventually produce a boeing 747.

Does the universe show evidence of design?
How can you tell? So far, I see argument from incredulity , but that isn't showing 'purposeful or inventive arrangement'.
ORDER

Scientists "find it mysterious that the universe was created in such a higly order condition" -- Astrophysicist, Alan Lightman
And, what does that mean in context? And can you show that 'Scientists Find it mysterious' ?? Or, is that just something that Alan Lightman claimed because of his personal religious beliefs.
few sysemizations in the history of science can rival the periodic concept as a broad revelation of the order of the physical world... whatever new elements may be discovered in the future it is certain they will find a place in the periodic system, confirming to its order and exhibiting the proper familial characteristics" -- The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Schience & technology
And this can all be explain with simple rules and natural filters in place. No need to invoke the supernatural, or a 'being'.
Maths and the Universe - Kepler's 3rd Law (slideshow)
Which can be explain by simple rules and natural filters in place.
BEAUTY

"To those who do not know mathematics it is difficult to get across a real feeling as to the beauty, the deepest beauty, of nature ... If you want to learn about nature, to appreciate nature, it is necessary to understand the language that she speaks in" -- Richard Feynman (American physicist known for his work in the path integral formulation of quantum mechanics)
Considering the fact that Richard Feynman is an atheist, I am sure his quote is taken out of context, and he would disagree with your conclusion.

Do you have any point that isn't a quote mine, the logical fallacy of argument from incredulity or anything?
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Re: to jehova's witness and those ressurection believers

Post #6

Post by JehovahsWitness »

luearts wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:00 am is nature supposed to kill thousands of lives? is mankind just abusive?
Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe all himans are abusive. Sadly some are but we believe God will destroy the wicked so the meek can inherit the earth.


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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: to jehova's witness and those ressurection believers

Post #7

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:15 pm
McCulloch wrote:Where is the evidence that the universe, earth or humans were deliberately designed?
#QUESTION Does the universe show evidence of intelligence design?

When is design not designed?
How about when it's not.

Take the the concentric design of spreading ripples.

Image

Think every instance of this design is necessarily a product of a designer?



Or how about the concentric growth rings of a tree?

Image

Do you believe that every such design of concentric circles of every tree in the forest---all of which do vary to some degree or another---was individually designed?



Or, how about the billions of different designs of snowflakes?

Image

Is each and every one individually designed by some designer?



Design, according to on popular online dictionary is defined as: The purposeful or inventive arrangement of parts or details; its verb (to design) means being defined as "To create or contrive for a particular purpose or effect/To create or execute in an artistic or highly skilled manner
And according to the dictionaries I consulted "design" can be defined as:

de·sign
/dəˈzīn/
noun
an arrangement of lines or shapes created to form a pattern or decoration.
source: Oxford Languages Dictionary
__________________________

designde•sign (dɪˈzaɪn)
noun
: a repeating picture, shape, etc. A pattern, form, figure, style, shape, organization, arrangement, construction, motif, configuration
source: Free Dictionary

Does the universe show evidence of design?
Of course, but not anything that requires a designer.

Happenstance (physics---the operation of matter and energy---in this case) creates designs all the time. See the expanding ripples, tree rings, and snowflakes mentioned above. Now prove that anything in the universe absolutely requires a designer for its existence. That X could not have developed into whatever form it has without a designer.

It's your assertion that it cannot, so the ball's in your corner.

.

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Re: to jehova's witness and those ressurection believers

Post #8

Post by 2timothy316 »

Miles wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:02 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:15 pm
McCulloch wrote:Where is the evidence that the universe, earth or humans were deliberately designed?
#QUESTION Does the universe show evidence of intelligence design?

When is design not designed?
How about when it's not.

Take the the concentric design of spreading ripples.
Physics was designed. Take the properties of water. What if it didn't float when it turned to ice? What if it couldn't turn in vapor? Where the ripples designed? Yes. Water was designed to make ripples. imagine a world without waves in the ocean. Waves are just ripples after all. Yet imagine if when a drop hits water but it didn't make circular ripples. Perhaps they were square or oval or only formed on side. Or didn't form at all.

Or how about the concentric growth rings of a tree?
Yes. This was planned. There are nothing accidental about a live tree making rings. The tree was designed to have growth seasons. This causes the rings. Otherwise there would be no rings if trees grew year round. If trees did try to grow year round they would die in winter. Eventually tress would be very rare.
Do you believe that every such design of concentric circles of every tree in the forest---all of which do vary to some degree or another---was individually designed?
Individually designed per tree, no. However, much like just like a computer code can be designed to simulate waves in water in a video game even if each wave was not coded by the programmer, the waves were still designed to be waves. When I see tree rings, I don't stop at 'oh hey look there are rings'. I look at how they are formed.
Or, how about the billions of different designs of snowflakes?

Is each and every one individually designed by some designer?
Same programming principle for ripples, waves, and tree rings. While each snowflake is different the way they look was designed, they do all have one thing in common. They all take crystalized property. Also, did you know that all snowflakes have 6 sides?

Think for just a moment if all of these things mentioned didn't have the properties that they have. Trees grew all year round, water wasn't a fluid, what if all liquids didn't act the way they do, and snowflakes didn't crystalize.

Those that can't see the design in our world I can only guess that they really don't want to see it. Or perhaps they just don't give it enough thought how everything works together and if it didn't work as it does, mankind wouldn't exist. To just look take a shallow approach to the world around us denies the deeper, bigger picture. It would be like a child who sees white smoke from a chimney and thinks that is where clouds come from for the rest of their life. Never doing further investigation.

Take any property of physics and now imagine if it did not act the way it does.

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Re: to jehova's witness and those ressurection believers

Post #9

Post by Miles »

2timothy316 wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 3:17 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:02 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:15 pm
McCulloch wrote:Where is the evidence that the universe, earth or humans were deliberately designed?
#QUESTION Does the universe show evidence of intelligence design?

When is design not designed?
How about when it's not.

Take the the concentric design of spreading ripples.
Physics was designed.
By whom? and what's your evidence?

Or how about the concentric growth rings of a tree?
Yes. This was planned.
By whom? and what's your evidence?

Do you believe that every such design of concentric circles of every tree in the forest---all of which do vary to some degree or another---was individually designed?
Individually designed per tree, no.
Image

However, much like just like a computer code can be designed to simulate waves in water in a video game even if each wave was not coded by the programmer, the waves were still designed to be waves. When I see tree rings, I don't stop at 'oh hey look there are rings'. I look at how they are formed.
By whom? and what's your evidence?

Or, how about the billions of different designs of snowflakes?

Is each and every one individually designed by some designer?
Same programming principle for ripples, waves, and tree rings.
For which you still need to provide evidence. Making claims means nothing. Evidence! Evidence! Evidence! My dear fellow.

Also, did you know that all snowflakes have 6 sides?
No I didn't because it's not true.

"This page is an abbreviated version of what you can find in Ken Libbrecht's Field Guide to Snowflakes.
If you would like to learn more about snowflakes, and what kinds of crystals can be found, this is the
book for you. It makes a great gift for anyone who enjoys the outdoors as well.

The chart [below] lists 35 snowflake types, which covers most of what you will find under your magnifier."

................
Image
source

Think for just a moment if all of these things mentioned didn't have the properties that they have. Trees grew all year round, water wasn't a fluid, what if all liquids didn't act the way they do, and snowflakes didn't crystalize.
I have, and see no reason to suppose any of the hundreds of proposed gods had anything to do with it.

Those that can't see the design in our world I can only guess that they really don't want to see it.
But just because something has symmetry doesn't mean it was designed. Just look at the concentric tree rings of a particular tree, which you've admitted weren't designed "Individually designed per tree, no." Or snowflakes. Or do you believe god takes time to design each of the quadrillions of snowflakes that fall each year?

Or perhaps they just don't give it enough thought how everything works together and if it didn't work as it does, mankind wouldn't exist. To just look take a shallow approach to the world around us denies the deeper, bigger picture. It would be like a child who sees white smoke from a chimney and thinks that is where clouds come from for the rest of their life. Never doing further investigation.

Take any property of physics and now imagine if it did not act the way it does.
It could be that neither of us or any other form of life would have ever arisen. But just because we have, certainly doesn't mean that a god was necessarily behind it all, especially when we have science showing how unnecessary such a being is for the existence of our physical world. As George Carlin once said:


.............. “The God excuse, the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument.”


.

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Re: to jehova's witness and those ressurection believers

Post #10

Post by 2timothy316 »

Miles wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:50 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 3:17 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:02 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:15 pm
McCulloch wrote:Where is the evidence that the universe, earth or humans were deliberately designed?
#QUESTION Does the universe show evidence of intelligence design?

When is design not designed?
How about when it's not.

Take the the concentric design of spreading ripples.
Physics was designed.
By whom? and what's your evidence?
I am not replying to convince you or debate with you. I'm answering a question. A designer is the only thing that makes reasonable sense to me. No designer does not make reasonable sense to me.
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:44 am, edited 4 times in total.

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