1. Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jesus was “a god.” This is how the NWT reads (John 1:1).
Do JW’s believe Jesus was a true or false god?
2. JW’s say Jesus is a created being.
When was Jesus (capital or lower case g) created?
I look forward to your responses to one or both questions.
MissKate13
Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Moderator: Moderators
-
MissKate13
- Sage
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:55 am
- Has thanked: 24 times
- Been thanked: 60 times
Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #1”For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24
-
tigger 2
- Student
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 3:02 pm
- Has thanked: 76 times
- Been thanked: 40 times
Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #391Let’s examine some other instances of the nouns used in the 5 Sharp’s “Trinity-proof” examples (as proclaimed by Sharp himself: Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:12; 1 Tim. 5:21; Eph. 5:5.
(1) The critical part of the “Trinity-proof” of 1 Tim. 5:21 is “Christ Jesus.” If this part of the verse in question had the definite article with it, it would no longer be in a “Sharp’s construction” and there would be no “grammatical” argument for trinitarians. But, since this part has no definite article (“in sight of the God and of Christ Jesus”), some trinitarians tell us it refers to the same person as the first half of the statement (“the God”).
But notice that Paul (and other NT writers) most often used “Christ Jesus” without the definite article!
As an example, 1 Tim. 4:6 says in the NT Greek: “you will be servant of Christ Jesus.” This is rendered: “you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus” - RSV. We see here, as in a majority of uses by Paul, that “Christ Jesus” does not need the article in the first place, so to conclude that its proper absence in a “Sharp’s construction” shows some special significance is specious and misleading!
Now let’s also examine 1 Tim. 6:13. In the NT Greek it says: “in sight of the God the (one) generating alive the all (things) and of Christ Jesus the (one) having borne witness upon Pontius Pilate.” This is rendered: “before God who gives life to all, and before Christ Jesus who gave a fearless testimony before Pontius Pilate” - LB.
Notice that, as usual, “Christ Jesus” does not have the article with it. But also notice that, even though it is in a “sharp’s construction,” context clearly shows Paul is considering these as two completely separate individuals! (Compare KJV.)
In fact, the phrase ‘Jesus Christ’ (and ‘Christ Jesus’) should be carefully analyzed in each of the 5 letters which contain the trinitarian (Sharp’s Rule) ‘proof’ that Jesus is God: Ephesians; 2 Thessalonians; 1 Timothy; Titus; and 2 Peter.
In Ephesians ‘Christ Jesus’/‘Jesus Christ’ is used 18 times, and in 16 of these it is without the definite article. 16/18 = 89% of the time that the phrase is used without a definite article!
In 2 Thessalonians ‘Jesus Christ’ is used 9 times and every one of them is without the article. 9/9 = 100% of the time that the phrase is used without a definite article!
In 1 Timothy there are 14 uses of ‘Christ Jesus’/‘Jesus Christ’ and every one of them is without the article. 14/14 = 100% of the time that the phrase is used without a definite article!
In Titus there are 4 uses of ‘Jesus Christ’/‘Christ Jesus’ and every one of them is without the article. 4/4 = 100% of the time that the phrase is used without a definite article!
In 2 Peter there are 8 uses of ‘Jesus Christ’ and every one of them is without the article. 8/8 = 100% of the time that the phrase is used without a definite article!
So, in all of these inspired letters by Paul and Peter there are 51 times (out of a total of 53) where the phrase “Jesus Christ”/“Christ Jesus” is used without a definite article. 51/53 = 96% of the time that the phrase is used without a definite article!
For anyone to pretend to find any great significance in the fact that “Christ Jesus” is without an article when it follows an articular noun is truly amazing. It would be much more surprising to actually find a few examples where it had the article with it!
............................
(2) The critical part of the “trinity-proof” of 2 Thess. 1:12 is “Lord Jesus Christ.” Since this part has no definite article in the NT Greek, some trinitarians tell us it must refer to the same person as the first half of the statement (“the God of us”). But notice that Paul (and other NT writers) often used “Lord Jesus Christ” WITHOUT the article. Some examples are Ro. 1:7 (“peace from God Father of us and of Lord Jesus Christ”); 2 Cor. 1:2; Eph. 6:23; Phil. 1:2; Col. 3:17; 2 Thess. 1:1; 1:2; 3:12; Philemon :3; James 1:1.
Philippians 3:20 in the NT Greek says: “also Savior we are eagerly awaiting Lord Jesus Christ,” and this is rendered in the King James Version as: “also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.” Since “the Lord Jesus Christ” was often written without the article, it should come as no surprise that occasionally (in accordance with the law of averages) a “Sharp’s Rule” construction would sometimes occur and would be no more meaningful to the writer than any other use of “the Lord Jesus Christ” with or without the article.
(3) The critical part of the “trinity-proof” of Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 is “Savior.” Since this part has no definite article, some trinitarians tell us it must refer to the same person as the first half of the statement (“the God”). But notice again that Paul (and other NT writers) also used “Savior” without the article. Examples are: Phil. 3:20 (which we also examined above in #2); 1 John 4:14 (which says, “The Father has sent off the Son Savior of the world” in the NT Greek and which the KJV renders as “the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.”)
Since “Savior” was also written without the article even when understood to be “The Savior,” it should come as no surprise that occasionally (in accordance with the law of averages) a “Sharp’s Rule” construction would sometimes occur and would be no more meaningful to the writer than any other use of “the Savior” with or without the article.
So, we can see that even if we disregard the grammatical reasons for such usage, the NT writers frequently did use the critical terms found in the 5 “Sharp’s Rule” trinity examples both with and without the article (whether in a “Sharp’s construction” or not)! This alone makes “Sharp’s Rule” absolutely worthless.
(1) The critical part of the “Trinity-proof” of 1 Tim. 5:21 is “Christ Jesus.” If this part of the verse in question had the definite article with it, it would no longer be in a “Sharp’s construction” and there would be no “grammatical” argument for trinitarians. But, since this part has no definite article (“in sight of the God and of Christ Jesus”), some trinitarians tell us it refers to the same person as the first half of the statement (“the God”).
But notice that Paul (and other NT writers) most often used “Christ Jesus” without the definite article!
As an example, 1 Tim. 4:6 says in the NT Greek: “you will be servant of Christ Jesus.” This is rendered: “you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus” - RSV. We see here, as in a majority of uses by Paul, that “Christ Jesus” does not need the article in the first place, so to conclude that its proper absence in a “Sharp’s construction” shows some special significance is specious and misleading!
Now let’s also examine 1 Tim. 6:13. In the NT Greek it says: “in sight of the God the (one) generating alive the all (things) and of Christ Jesus the (one) having borne witness upon Pontius Pilate.” This is rendered: “before God who gives life to all, and before Christ Jesus who gave a fearless testimony before Pontius Pilate” - LB.
Notice that, as usual, “Christ Jesus” does not have the article with it. But also notice that, even though it is in a “sharp’s construction,” context clearly shows Paul is considering these as two completely separate individuals! (Compare KJV.)
In fact, the phrase ‘Jesus Christ’ (and ‘Christ Jesus’) should be carefully analyzed in each of the 5 letters which contain the trinitarian (Sharp’s Rule) ‘proof’ that Jesus is God: Ephesians; 2 Thessalonians; 1 Timothy; Titus; and 2 Peter.
In Ephesians ‘Christ Jesus’/‘Jesus Christ’ is used 18 times, and in 16 of these it is without the definite article. 16/18 = 89% of the time that the phrase is used without a definite article!
In 2 Thessalonians ‘Jesus Christ’ is used 9 times and every one of them is without the article. 9/9 = 100% of the time that the phrase is used without a definite article!
In 1 Timothy there are 14 uses of ‘Christ Jesus’/‘Jesus Christ’ and every one of them is without the article. 14/14 = 100% of the time that the phrase is used without a definite article!
In Titus there are 4 uses of ‘Jesus Christ’/‘Christ Jesus’ and every one of them is without the article. 4/4 = 100% of the time that the phrase is used without a definite article!
In 2 Peter there are 8 uses of ‘Jesus Christ’ and every one of them is without the article. 8/8 = 100% of the time that the phrase is used without a definite article!
So, in all of these inspired letters by Paul and Peter there are 51 times (out of a total of 53) where the phrase “Jesus Christ”/“Christ Jesus” is used without a definite article. 51/53 = 96% of the time that the phrase is used without a definite article!
For anyone to pretend to find any great significance in the fact that “Christ Jesus” is without an article when it follows an articular noun is truly amazing. It would be much more surprising to actually find a few examples where it had the article with it!
............................
(2) The critical part of the “trinity-proof” of 2 Thess. 1:12 is “Lord Jesus Christ.” Since this part has no definite article in the NT Greek, some trinitarians tell us it must refer to the same person as the first half of the statement (“the God of us”). But notice that Paul (and other NT writers) often used “Lord Jesus Christ” WITHOUT the article. Some examples are Ro. 1:7 (“peace from God Father of us and of Lord Jesus Christ”); 2 Cor. 1:2; Eph. 6:23; Phil. 1:2; Col. 3:17; 2 Thess. 1:1; 1:2; 3:12; Philemon :3; James 1:1.
Philippians 3:20 in the NT Greek says: “also Savior we are eagerly awaiting Lord Jesus Christ,” and this is rendered in the King James Version as: “also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.” Since “the Lord Jesus Christ” was often written without the article, it should come as no surprise that occasionally (in accordance with the law of averages) a “Sharp’s Rule” construction would sometimes occur and would be no more meaningful to the writer than any other use of “the Lord Jesus Christ” with or without the article.
(3) The critical part of the “trinity-proof” of Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 is “Savior.” Since this part has no definite article, some trinitarians tell us it must refer to the same person as the first half of the statement (“the God”). But notice again that Paul (and other NT writers) also used “Savior” without the article. Examples are: Phil. 3:20 (which we also examined above in #2); 1 John 4:14 (which says, “The Father has sent off the Son Savior of the world” in the NT Greek and which the KJV renders as “the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.”)
Since “Savior” was also written without the article even when understood to be “The Savior,” it should come as no surprise that occasionally (in accordance with the law of averages) a “Sharp’s Rule” construction would sometimes occur and would be no more meaningful to the writer than any other use of “the Savior” with or without the article.
So, we can see that even if we disregard the grammatical reasons for such usage, the NT writers frequently did use the critical terms found in the 5 “Sharp’s Rule” trinity examples both with and without the article (whether in a “Sharp’s construction” or not)! This alone makes “Sharp’s Rule” absolutely worthless.
-
boatsnguitars
- Banned
- Posts: 2060
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:09 am
- Has thanked: 477 times
- Been thanked: 580 times
Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #392Seems your Bible says differently. Again, see you in Hell.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:14 amAre you a brother or sister of Christ? If not there is no judgement. Plus those were not OWH's words, those words came from the Bible, if you don't like what is written there then don't read it.boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:11 amI've flagged your post. You're literally calling me a fool. Rude.onewithhim wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:04 pm [Replying to boatsnguitars in post #341]
"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" (Psalm 53:1)
Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
See you in Hell.
I highly doubt OWH is angry with you either. Most likely they feel pity for those that say in their heart, 'there is no God'.
2 Thessalonians 3:15
Do not regard him as an enemy, but keep admonishing him as a [believing] brother.
“The Christian must treat his enemy as a brother, and requite his hostility with love. His behavior must be determined not by the way others treat him, but by the treatment he himself receives from Jesus; it has only one source, and that is the will of Jesus.”
― Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
Of course, that's not in the Bible, so you'll reject it.
If we don't use the Bible, you guys claim, "Meh, it's not from the Bible, so we don't care."I do find it perplexing when an atheist tries to use the Bible in their defense though and then goes further to condemn someone to fiery hell. A place they don't believe exists and neither does the person they are condemning.
Just trying to reach you through the only way you seem willing to engage.
I'm trying to save you. I love you. I hate seeing you guys ruin your lives.
I'd, personally, never call you a fool.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
-
2timothy316
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4186
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 176 times
- Been thanked: 459 times
Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #393Ecc 9:5 "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all."boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:43 amSeems your Bible says differently. Again, see you in Hell.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:14 amAre you a brother or sister of Christ? If not there is no judgement. Plus those were not OWH's words, those words came from the Bible, if you don't like what is written there then don't read it.boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:11 amI've flagged your post. You're literally calling me a fool. Rude.onewithhim wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:04 pm [Replying to boatsnguitars in post #341]
"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" (Psalm 53:1)
Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
See you in Hell.
I highly doubt OWH is angry with you either. Most likely they feel pity for those that say in their heart, 'there is no God'.
2 Thessalonians 3:15
Do not regard him as an enemy, but keep admonishing him as a [believing] brother.
There is no hell.
Do you know why the book of Thessalonians an others like it are named the way they are? They are letters to Christian congregations in those cites. These letters are from Christians to Christians. Are you a Christian admonishing to another Christian? No. This quote from Paul's letter to the Thessalonian Christian congregation doesn't apply to you. You are not my spiritual brother. Do you want to be?
I didn't realize you were my enemy, but ok.“The Christian must treat his enemy as a brother, and requite his hostility with love. His behavior must be determined not by the way others treat him, but by the treatment he himself receives from Jesus; it has only one source, and that is the will of Jesus.”
― Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
Of course, that's not in the Bible, so you'll reject it.
You're correct what you quoted I reject. The Bible says, "Honor men of all sorts, have love for the whole association of brothers, be in fear of God, honor the king." 1 Pe 2:17
You are not my brother and I didn't know until now that we are enemies. Unless you want to stop being enemies and become my brother and fear God like me and my spiritual brothers and sisters. Otherwise, I do have to treat you like a spiritual brother.
Your use of the Bible holds no weight. You're not trying to strengthen my faith in God but trying to damage it.If we don't use the Bible, you guys claim, "Meh, it's not from the Bible, so we don't care."I do find it perplexing when an atheist tries to use the Bible in their defense though and then goes further to condemn someone to fiery hell. A place they don't believe exists and neither does the person they are condemning.
Just trying to reach you through the only way you seem willing to engage.
I'm trying to do the same.I'm trying to save you. I love you. I hate seeing you guys ruin your lives.
You could live forever. But you claim, 'Meh, its from the Bible, so I don't care'.
My life is great! I love my life.
I wouldn't care if you did. I've been called a lot worse. I used to think there was no God and I was a fool to think it.I'd, personally, never call you a fool.
I'd never say 'see you in hell' to anyone.
-
boatsnguitars
- Banned
- Posts: 2060
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:09 am
- Has thanked: 477 times
- Been thanked: 580 times
Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #394The quote says that a fool says it. That is, according to your text, you are still a fool.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:07 am I used to think there was no God and I was a fool to think it.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
-
2timothy316
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4186
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 176 times
- Been thanked: 459 times
Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #395The scripture says, 'says it in his heart'. I don't say that to myself anymore so I don't apply that scripture to me concerning belief in God.boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:14 amThe quote says that a fool says it. That is, according to your text, you are still a fool.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:07 am I used to think there was no God and I was a fool to think it.
You're free of course to view the text however you want. And view me however you want. IDC.
-
boatsnguitars
- Banned
- Posts: 2060
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:09 am
- Has thanked: 477 times
- Been thanked: 580 times
Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #396Thank you, I will then.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:00 pmThe scripture says, 'says it in his heart'. I don't say that to myself anymore so I don't apply that scripture to me concerning belief in God.boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:14 amThe quote says that a fool says it. That is, according to your text, you are still a fool.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:07 am I used to think there was no God and I was a fool to think it.
You're free of course to view the text however you want. And view me however you want. IDC.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
-
Difflugia
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3044
- Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
- Location: Michigan
- Has thanked: 3276 times
- Been thanked: 2022 times
Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #397I was just binge watching some Tom Scott videos on YouTube and ran across two that seem quite relevant to this thread and Granville Sharp's rule. In a nutshell, it seems to me they're all just saying the same thing I try to keep in mind: authors want to be understood. Occasionally, the author misses some ambiguity and a language construction is difficult to understand, but if one's theological apologetic consistently relies on such ambiguities being resolved in non-obvious ways, then perhaps the apologetic arguments simply aren't respecting the authors themselves.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.
-
JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21112
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 792 times
- Been thanked: 1122 times
- Contact:
Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #398JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 7:10 pm
POST #3 How do various translations render John 1:1 ?
viewtopic.php?p=1111348#p1111348
POST # 76How should John 1:1 be properly translated?
viewtopic.php?p=1112024#p1112024
POST #13 What did Paul mean when he refered to Jesus as the "firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15)?
viewtopic.php?p=1111525#p1111525
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:05 pm JESUS = YHWH
Proof # 1
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. (Zechariah 12:10)
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:05 pm This is how Jesus could say, “I and My Father are one. (John 10:30)EXPLAINED : John 10:30: What did Jesus mean by My father and I are one?
viewtopic.php?p=1112220#p1112220
- POST #129 What did Jesus mean when he said "If you have seen me you have seen the father" ?
viewtopic.php?p=1112259#p1112259
- POST #132 Was Jesus declaring himself to be YAHWEH at John 8:58?
viewtopic.php?p=1112263#p1112263
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 6:12 am
Proof # 2
...YHWH is the first and last. Jesus is THE FIRST AND LAST
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:42 am Proof # 3
BOTH are the first and last. BOTH are redeemer. [...] BOTH are YHWH!EXPLAINED : How is it that BOTH Jesus and YHWH are called "The first and the Last" without them being the same person ? ( post #163)
viewtopic.php?p=1112478#p1112478
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:42 am13 “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.... (Titus 2:13-14)EXPLAINED :Does Paul call Jesus "our God and Saviour" at Titius 2:13? ( post #161)
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:14 pm Proof # 4
24 “... “I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who by Myself spread out the earth,” (Isaiah 44:24 )EXPLAINED : How could Jesus be with God during creation if Isaiah 44:24 says YHWH was "ALONE" ?( post #170)
viewtopic.php?p=1112561#p1112561
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:17 pm Proof # 5
In the Old Testament, YHWH says, There is no Savior BESIDES ME (Isaiah 43:10; Hosea 13:4)EXPLAINED : How could be our savior if Hosea 13:4 says "There is no Savior BESIDES ME" ?( post #173)
viewtopic.php?p=1112572#p1112572
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 7:59 am Proof # 6
Jesus is EVERLASTING
Micah 5:2 The prophet is speaking of Jesus whose goings forth are from old, from EVERLASTINGEXPLAINED : Does Micah 5:2 mean Jesus had no beginning ?( post #181)
viewtopic.php?p=1112696#p1112696
- POST #216 Did Jesus declare himself YHWH at John 8:24 ?
viewtopic.php?p=1112954#p1112954
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
-
onewithhim
- Savant
- Posts: 9015
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
- Location: Norwich, CT
- Has thanked: 1227 times
- Been thanked: 312 times
Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #399I will be interested to see how MissKate responds to JehovahsWitness' explanations.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:08 amJehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 7:10 pm
POST #3 How do various translations render John 1:1 ?
viewtopic.php?p=1111348#p1111348
POST # 76How should John 1:1 be properly translated?
viewtopic.php?p=1112024#p1112024
POST #13 What did Paul mean when he refered to Jesus as the "firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15)?
viewtopic.php?p=1111525#p1111525
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:05 pm JESUS = YHWH
Proof # 1
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. (Zechariah 12:10)
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:05 pm This is how Jesus could say, “I and My Father are one. (John 10:30)EXPLAINED : John 10:30: What did Jesus mean by My father and I are one?
viewtopic.php?p=1112220#p1112220
- POST #129 What did Jesus mean when he said "If you have seen me you have seen the father" ?
viewtopic.php?p=1112259#p1112259
- POST #132 Was Jesus declaring himself to be YAHWEH at John 8:58?
viewtopic.php?p=1112263#p1112263
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 6:12 am
Proof # 2
...YHWH is the first and last. Jesus is THE FIRST AND LAST
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:42 am Proof # 3
BOTH are the first and last. BOTH are redeemer. [...] BOTH are YHWH!EXPLAINED : How is it that BOTH Jesus and YHWH are called "The first and the Last" without them being the same person ? ( post #163)
viewtopic.php?p=1112478#p1112478
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:42 am13 “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.... (Titus 2:13-14)EXPLAINED :Does Paul call Jesus "our God and Saviour" at Titius 2:13? ( post #161)
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:14 pm Proof # 4
24 “... “I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who by Myself spread out the earth,” (Isaiah 44:24 )EXPLAINED : How could Jesus be with God during creation if Isaiah 44:24 says YHWH was "ALONE" ?( post #170)
viewtopic.php?p=1112561#p1112561
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:17 pm Proof # 5
In the Old Testament, YHWH says, There is no Savior BESIDES ME (Isaiah 43:10; Hosea 13:4)EXPLAINED : How could be our savior if Hosea 13:4 says "There is no Savior BESIDES ME" ?( post #173)
viewtopic.php?p=1112572#p1112572
MissKate13 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 7:59 am Proof # 6
Jesus is EVERLASTING
Micah 5:2 The prophet is speaking of Jesus whose goings forth are from old, from EVERLASTINGEXPLAINED : Does Micah 5:2 mean Jesus had no beginning ?( post #181)
viewtopic.php?p=1112696#p1112696
- POST #216 Did Jesus declare himself YHWH at John 8:24 ?
viewtopic.php?p=1112954#p1112954
-
JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21112
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 792 times
- Been thanked: 1122 times
- Contact:
Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #400Well there are an abundances of resources debunking the so-called "trinity" texts...
RELATED POSTS
RELATED POSTS
Did Jesus ever claim equality with God?
viewtopic.php?p=1128967#p1128967
Did Jesus blaspheme by claiming to be "God's son"?
viewtopic.php?p=1128991#p1128991
How should PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 [ properly be understood ?] "he did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped"]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 98#p872798
Does Jesus saying that God "lived in him" [JOHN 14:10] amount to a claim to equality with God?
viewtopic.php?p=1128982#p1128982
To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...
GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
