HOW IS CHRIST THE FIRST BEGOTTEN FROM AMONG THE DEAD?

[Eddie Ramos]

If we look at all the people in the Bible who were ever brought to physical life after dying physically, then there were a total of six people who were raised to life before Christ himself was raised in 33 A.D. That would make Christ the 7th begotten from among the dead, would it not? Well, here is a list of all those who were raised before Christ:

The widow's son of Zarepath (1 Kings 17:17-24) Raised by Elijah
The Shunamite's son (2 Kings 4:20-37) Raised by Elisha
The man tossed into Elisha's tomb (2 Kings 13:21) Raised by the bones of Elisha
The widow's son of Nain (Luke 7:11-16) Raised by Jesus
Jarius' 12 year old daughter (Mark 5:35-43) Raised by Jesus
Lazarus (John 11:1-44) Raised by Jesus

This presents a problem for us if were looking to the time of the cross as the only time Jesus died and rose again. But when we can see that Jesus died and rose again from the foundation of the world, to pay for sins, then the statement made in Revelation 1:5 harmonizes perfectly with the scriptures as a whole when it declares that Christ was indeed the first begotten from among the dead. And because Christ was indeed the first to die and raise again, then this also agrees with the passage that tells us that he has preeminence in all things.

Colossians 1:18 (KJV 1900)
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence (be first).

For those who disagree that Christ died and rose before the world began, the topic of debate is to show from the scriptures how Christ is the first begotten from the dead when he was actually the 7th, if you're looking to the time of the cross as the only time he died and rose again.

[Miles]

Aside from the example of Mark 5:35-43 where Jesus told the people "The child has not died, but is sleeping." I think you have a good point. There are five instances were the Bible says people were brought back from the dead, all of which predated Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection, which makes Colossians 1:18 false.

NOTE, the following are some of the Bibles that chose not to use the word "firstborn," but instead use the more concise and clearer "first" to describe Jesus's supposed ranking among the resurrected.

Contemporary English Version
"He is the head of his body, which is the church. He is the very beginning, the first to be raised from death, so that he would be above all others."

Easy-to-Read Version
"He is the head of the body, which is the church. He is the beginning of everything else. And he is the first among all who will be raised from death. So in everything he is most important."

GOD’S WORD Translation
He is also the head of the church, which is his body. He is the beginning, the first to come back to life so that he would have first place in everything.

International Children’s Bible
He is the head of the body. (The body is the church.) Everything comes from him. And he is the first one who was raised from death. So in all things Jesus is most important.

Name of God Bible
He is also the head of the church, which is his body. He is the beginning, the first to come back to life so that he would have first place in everything.

New Century Version
He is the head of the body, which is the church. Everything comes from him. He is the first one who was raised from the dead. So in all things Jesus has first place.

This presents a problem for us if were looking to the time of the cross as the only time Jesus died and rose again.

But why would anyone think it was not the only time?

But when we can see that Jesus died and rose again from the foundation of the world, to pay for sins, then the statement made in Revelation 1:5 harmonizes perfectly with the scriptures as a whole when it declares that Christ was indeed the first begotten from among the dead.

I have no idea what you mean by "died and rose again from the foundation of the world" And I don't see what you presented as harmonizing with anything.
Moreover, when was Jesus alive, died, and arose from the dead before having been born of Mary---his subsequent life among his disciples---death on the cross---and resurrection on the third day? What supports the notion of "rose again"?

And because Christ was indeed the first to die and raise again, then this also agrees with the passage that tells us that he has preeminence in all things.

But the list of others who died and rose again give lie to the assertion that Jesus was the first.


.

[Eddie Ramos]

Aside from the example of Mark 5:35-43 where Jesus told the people "The child has not died, but is sleeping." I think you have a good point. There are five instances were the Bible says people were brought back from the dead, all of which predated Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection, which makes Colossians 1:18 false.

Jesus uses "sleeping" as a synonym for being dead.

John 11:11–14 (KJV 1900)
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

This presents a problem for us if were looking to the time of the cross as the only time Jesus died and rose again.

I have no idea what you mean by "died and rose again from the foundation of the world" And I don't see what you presented as harmonizing with anything.
Moreover, when was Jesus alive, died, and arose from the dead before having been born of Mary---his subsequent life among his disciples---death on the cross---and resurrection on the third day? What supports the notion of "rose again"? But why would anyone think it was not the only time?

Because in this time of the end, God has opened up more understanding from the scriptures and has revealed unto those that are his, that Christ died and rose again from the foundation of the world (meaning, before the world began). Here are a few passages that teach us this:

Revelation 13:8 (KJV 1900)
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV 1900)
For we which have believed do enter into rest(this is salvation), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 9:25–26 (KJV 1900)
Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

John 12:27–28 (KJV 1900)
(In the context of Christ's death he says) Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it (past tense), and will glorify it again (future tense).

And because Christ was indeed the first to die and raise again, then this also agrees with the passage that tells us that he has preeminence in all things.

But the list of others who died and rose again give lie to the assertion that Jesus was the first.

That's only if you look to the time of the cross as the only time Christ died and rose again, which would contradict Colossians 1:18 as you stated. But because Christ died and rose again before the world began, Colossians 1:18 harmonizes perfectly, and the six who died and rose again, were not before Christ, but after him, making Christ the first in all things.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

Christ is the first begotten from the dead meaning that he is the first person to be resurrected with heaven in view---a resurrection to the spirit realm. Before Jesus' death, everyone had an earthly view of resurrection, and had no understanding that any human would go to heaven. (John 3:13) Other anointed people will follow him with their own resurrections, to heaven. These anointed are the "dead" that Christ was first-begotten in relation to. He is the first-begotten from the death of anointed persons who are all going to heaven.

[Eddie Ramos]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

Christ is the first begotten from the dead meaning that he is the first person to be resurrected with heaven in view---a resurrection to the spirit realm. Before Jesus' death, everyone had an earthly view of resurrection, and had no understanding that any human would go to heaven. (John 3:13) Other anointed people will follow him with their own resurrections, to heaven. These anointed are the "dead" that Christ was first-begotten in relation to. He is the first-begotten from the death of anointed persons who are all going to heaven.

Thanks for your reply, but that is incorrect. Please let me explain. You're basing your premise on what Christ said in John 3:13.

John 3:13 (KJV 1900)
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Keeping in mind that without a parable Christ did not speak, we know that this isn't saying that before Christ spoke these words, that no human being has ascended up to heaven, nor that before Jesus' death on the cross, that no one had any understanding that any human would go to heaven. The Bible teaches us that humans ascending to heaven was not only understood, but was read about in the scriptures.

2 Kings 2:1 (KJV 1900)
And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

2 Kings 2:11 (KJV 1900)
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Even before Elijah, we read about the sons of God who would continuously present themselves before God. Well, these sons of God can only be those who have become born again, not angelic beings (as most believe) as per Hebrews 1:5.

And insofar as an actual resurrection from the dead with heaven in view, Moses was the first, but that presents a contradiction with Colossians 1:18. But it's not a contradiction if we understand that Christ died and rose again before the world began, making him the first in all things, then Moses would be sometime after. We know that he was indeed resurrected because we read of him appearing on the mount with Elijah (who was also changed when he was taken up) talking with Jesus. We know this wasn't an invisible appearance, because Peter suggested to raise 3 tabernacles, one for each of them.

Mark 9:5–6 (KJV 1900)
And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.

This resurrection of Moses was done to demonstrate that Christ had already died and was raised again before the world began. Thus making it possible not only to save people by grace (like Noah) from the very beginning, thousands of years before the cross. This the Devil did not understand, how God could raise up the body of Moses before Christ went to the actual cross in 33 A.D. That's why we read of him disputing with Christ about the body of Moses.

Jude 9 (KJV 1900)
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

If you look up the word "contending", you'll see that this word comes from the root word which means "to go to law". In other words, the Devil's dispute (by going to the law) was that Moses' body could not have been raised from the dead before Christ had done so. And the only example we have of Moses appearing and talking with Christ, being seen of Peter, was at the mount. There would be no other reason for the Devil to dispute about Moses' body if it was still in the grave. But this was done because the Devil did not understand what God had kept sealed up till the time of the end. Namely that Christ died and rose again from the foundation of the world.

Another proof regarding the fact that Christ died and rose again and ascended up to heaven before anyone, is what took place after Christ's resurrection in 33 A.D. Namely that there were dead bodies which also arose, but where did they go?

Matthew 27:50–54 (KJV 1900)
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Ok, so we read that these bodies that arose from the dead, went into the holy city. And immediately, people would assume that this is speaking of Jerusalem. But that would be incorrect because once the vail of the temple was rent, Jerusalem was no longer holy. Thus, it was no longer the holy city. But the Jerusalem above was always the holy city.

Revelation 21:2 (KJV 1900)
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This is where the bodies that were dead and arose and went to, being seen (witnessed) of many. This is why the next part of Matthew 27 (verse 54) focuses on the words of the centurion and the guards, who were keeping watch at Christ's tomb, because they saw the earthquake and those (mentioned in the previous verses) things that were done, that they feared greatly.

Therefore, John 3:13 must be understood in light of the whole of the scriptures, and when we take into account the fact that Christ was the first to die and rise again and ascend unto heaven, then we can better understand the parable of John 3:13. That no man hath ascended up to heaven before Christ, BUT (meaning, "except") one person has. Who? The son of man which came down from heaven. He's referring to himself as being the exception of having ascended and then descended from heaven, but while on earth, he then says that he's (present tense) in heaven. And this speaks to his divinity as God Almighty.

[Miles]

Aside from the example of Mark 5:35-43 where Jesus told the people "The child has not died, but is sleeping." I think you have a good point. There are five instances were the Bible says people were brought back from the dead, all of which predated Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection, which makes Colossians 1:18 false.

Jesus uses "sleeping" as a synonym for being dead.

So when Jesus said "The child has not died, but is sleeping." what he was really saying is "The child has not died, but is dead." And this makes sense to you?

That's only if you look to the time of the cross as the only time Christ died and rose again, which would contradict Colossians 1:18 as you stated. But because Christ died and rose again before the world began, Colossians 1:18 harmonizes perfectly, and the six who died and rose again, were not before Christ, but after him, making Christ the first in all things.

Where is it said that Jesus died and rose again before the world began? AND, where was he when he died?

.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #5]

Elijah didn't go to the spiritual realm of heaven. He merely went up into the atmosphere where the birds fly, off to another assignment. Another few years and he is still alive and active as a prophet. He told King Jehoram of Judah that he was condemned by Jehovah. (2Chronicles 21:12-15)

[JehovahsWitness]

Christ was the firstborn from te dead in that he was the first to be raised to IMMORTALITY. The first human to be raised to immortal spirit life.




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THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD , RESURRECTION and ... HEAVEN

[2ndpillar2]

If we look at all the people in the Bible who were ever brought to physical life after dying physically, then there were a total of six people who were raised to life before Christ himself was raised in 33 A.D. That would make Christ the 7th begotten from among the dead, would it not? Well, here is a list of all those who were raised before Christ:

The widow's son of Zarepath (1 Kings 17:17-24) Raised by Elijah
The Shunamite's son (2 Kings 4:20-37) Raised by Elisha
The man tossed into Elisha's tomb (2 Kings 13:21) Raised by the bones of Elisha
The widow's son of Nain (Luke 7:11-16) Raised by Jesus
Jarius' 12 year old daughter (Mark 5:35-43) Raised by Jesus
Lazarus (John 11:1-44) Raised by Jesus

This presents a problem for us if were looking to the time of the cross as the only time Jesus died and rose again. But when we can see that Jesus died and rose again from the foundation of the world, to pay for sins, then the statement made in Revelation 1:5 harmonizes perfectly with the scriptures as a whole when it declares that Christ was indeed the first begotten from among the dead. And because Christ was indeed the first to die and raise again, then this also agrees with the passage that tells us that he has preeminence in all things.

Colossians 1:18 (KJV 1900)
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence (be first).

For those who disagree that Christ died and rose before the world began, the topic of debate is to show from the scriptures how Christ is the first begotten from the dead when he was actually the 7th, if you're looking to the time of the cross as the only time he died and rose again.

Your reference is from the false prophet Paul (Col 1:18). The "son of man" was the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, that would be the "Word made flesh", the "Word of God", which was from the beginning. Trying to shoehorn that into the "message" of the "enemy", the "devil", and his false prophet Paul, can put one into a bind.

[Eddie Ramos]

Aside from the example of Mark 5:35-43 where Jesus told the people "The child has not died, but is sleeping." I think you have a good point. There are five instances were the Bible says people were brought back from the dead, all of which predated Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection, which makes Colossians 1:18 false.

Jesus uses "sleeping" as a synonym for being dead.

So when Jesus said "The child has not died, but is sleeping." what he was really saying is "The child has not died, but is dead." And this makes sense to you?

It makes perfect sense, but not the way you describe it. You should not forget the principle that Jesus did not speak without parables. That means that he spoke that way so as to conceal truth from the unsaved. So, when we study what God means by death, we learn that when a true child of God physically dies, that this physical death is temporary because at the last day, they will rise and be changed into an incorruptible spiritual body. So, while they lay in the grave or have recently died, the Bible refers to them as being asleep (again, because one day they will awake).

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV 1900)
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

God also tells us that when a person became born again (saved) that they would never die. This of course, gave the Pharisees the ammunition they needed to catch Christ in a "lie". Because they immediately pointed to faithful Abraham and mentioned that he was dead. But, again, Christ always spoke in parables so that the unsaved would conclude the word of God to be lies, foolishness, full of errors. Yet, all the while it had to do with their own blindness to spiritual truth. Christ was referring to the born again soul of man that would never die. The flesh (body) does not benefit from salvation until the last day. So, when Christ said that she wasn't dead, he told the truth. She was very much spiritually alive. And when he said that she was sleeping, he told the truth. Her physical death was temporary till he took her by the hand and brought her back to physical life.

That's only if you look to the time of the cross as the only time Christ died and rose again, which would contradict Colossians 1:18 as you stated. But because Christ died and rose again before the world began, Colossians 1:18 harmonizes perfectly, and the six who died and rose again, were not before Christ, but after him, making Christ the first in all things.

Where is it said that Jesus died and rose again before the world began? AND, where was he when he died?

.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV 1900)
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV 1900)
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works (necessary for salvation (rest)) were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 9:25–26 (KJV 1900)
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV 1900)
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in (meaning "through") Christ Jesus before the world began,


Revelation 1:5 (KJV 1900)
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

These passages are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to this understanding, as the whole of the scriptures testify to this in various forms (like historical parables).

And the Bible doesn't give us any information as to where he was where he died, because our creation was not in existence yet.