The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

[Eloi]

Jehovah's Witnesses regard the Bible as the Word of God that he inspired to be written to instruct his people. That is the direct cause that our people are so different from other religious communities around the world. For example: all Witnesses preach, no Witnesses participate in military matters, we are totally neutral in political matters, etc. I am not talking about a few individuals or small groups of fellow believers with the same principles or beliefs, I am talking about a worldwide community where the more than 8.5 million counted as Jehovah's Witnesses are dedicated, baptized and active public preachers. Furthermore, we all study the same teachings week after week all over the planet. They are direct effects of seriously considering all biblical matters.

Aside from the direct results of being fully guided by the Scriptures, what other evidence do we Witnesses have to consider the Bible as the Word of God? I would like to talk about them little by little on this topic, and although some do not agree, at least you will know what reasons we have for having this point of view on the Bible. First thing, to start on one specific point: prophecies.

To understand the matter of the prophecies that Jehovah's prophets gave in their books, we must first understand one thing: since the Bible was written part by part over a period of about 1600 years, there was already part of the Bible written at the time in which others wrote new inspired books. For example, at the time that Daniel was living in Babylon, he was holding in his hands part of the book that Jeremiah had written some years earlier. This process of writing to join with what has already been written continued throughout the time that the Bible was being completed until it was what we know today. In reality, when Jesus lived as a human, the Scriptures that we call the Old Testament were already complete and he read and studied them.

Although I will talk about other prophecies later, I would like to mention three of them that are especially striking:

1) Did you know that Daniel predicted the time when Jesus would appear as Messiah? How did Daniel know that the Messiah would appear in 29 C.E.?

2) Did you know that the Christians were not destroyed when the Romans attacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E. because Jesus told them more than thirty years before that they had to flee out of there at the right moment?

3) Did you know that the prophet Isaiah predicted more than a century and a half earlier how Babylon would be conquered by the Medo-Persians and even predicted the name of the man who would be directly responsible for that attack?

When we Witnesses see prophecies like these fulfilled, our confidence that the Bible is more than just a book written by men increases. What do critics of the Bible say about biblical prophecies and their fulfillment?

[TRANSPONDER]

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Our claimant here has presented, in the OP...

For example, at the time that Daniel was living in Babylon, he was holding in his hands part of the book that Jeremiah had written some years earlier. This process of writing to join with what has already been written continued throughout the time that the Bible was being completed until it was what we know today.

Notice I've challenged our claimant on this alleged part of this book. It's presented as some form of evidence that biblical tales, or at least Eloi's tales can be trusted.

However, Eloi has ignored my dogged efforts to get Eloi to provide this book for examination, so that we can see if it's reliable, and if it relates to biblical / Eloic claims.

Nothing. No support. No retraction. No, "Well about that..."

I propose that in the absence of Eloi supporting said claim, anything and everything that follows that claim is as suspect as me sitting in front of an empty pie tin with a face full of pudding, trying to tell the pretty thing I don't know where it went.

Is it really so hard for Christians to display even a mote of honor in our debates?

It's a funny thing. But thinking in terms of cult -think combined with individual self protection shows the thinking and reaction, so we can see what is driving the behavior. Do I need to point a finger at pot -kettle propaganda attacks by people who feel their enemies are closing in? Do I need to point to online vidclips or books about workplace bullies who play the victim when they get called into the Bosses' office? This kind of instinctive reaction is known and shouldn't be unexpected or puzzling.

The evangelical methods are also known - I'm not sure which came first, selling vacuum cleaners or Bible -belief but the method of the trained spiel and line is familiar (I was taught it when I sold investment plans as a 2nd job during the 2010 crash, and I saw it was just the same technique as JW foot in the door, feed line "...you see that God's prophecies come true... now, then...") and the good ol' projection isn't so new either. I don't claim to know why and how, though in some cases not being able to imagine that atheists don't think the same way accounts for some of it, but we can certainly see when we are accused to running away without answering when it's the Theist apologist (while trying to get in the parting shot...that's very important, too) that does it, or the Deep Dive...resurface a fortnight later on another thread making the same debunked claims. It's all part of what is as fascinating at the debate itself - the methods of debate. what's a good example? I think this Faithbased thinking that comes up as the Big If

"If God is real, then..." Essentially all the problems can be dismissed as there are Reasons for everything, even if we don't know them. Which is what theists accuse 'scientism' of doing. And they miss that science HAS provided the answers in the past and so assuming natural explanations rather than supernatural ones is perfectly reasonable. The Theist side Think that Godfaith is as good if not better because they have God's Word, while science has only human opinion. (Science - denial is basic to faithbased argument)

Which leads into logic and philosophy which is actually fiddlement and sophistry, but they cannot see it because of inverted logic based on faith. insisting that atheism asserts a claim is necessary to shift the burden of proof, leading to telling atheists what they think, not asking them.

Which is where we came in. They for sure know it's wrong and a cheat to tell atheists what they are, how they think, what they do, what they don't and what they ought (e.g provide a world of meaning, not just reasons to not believe the god -claim) but it doesn't matter because they know they are right on Faith and thus doing the argument wrong is ok because they are right on Faith.

[Eloi]

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PS: For other forumers:
...

We interrupt this message for an important announcement for, I reckon, other forumers...

Our claimant here has presented, in the OP...

For example, at the time that Daniel was living in Babylon, he was holding in his hands part of the book that Jeremiah had written some years earlier. This process of writing to join with what has already been written continued throughout the time that the Bible was being completed until it was what we know today.

Notice I've challenged our claimant on this alleged part of this book. It's presented as some form of evidence that biblical tales, or at least Eloi's tales can be trusted.

However, Eloi has ignored my dogged efforts to get Eloi to provide this book for examination (...)

Since In saw your post asking for that I answered you ...

Dan. 9:1 In the first year of Da·riʹus the son of Ahasuerus—a descendant of the Medes who had been made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans— 2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of years mentioned in the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet to fulfill the desolation of Jerusalem, namely, 70 years. 3 So I turned my face to Jehovah the true God, entreating him in prayer, along with fasting and sackcloth and ashes.

Daniel was reading probably this sections of the book written by Jeremiah about 7 decades before:

Jer. 25:11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.
... 29:10 For this is what Jehovah says, ‘When 70 years at Babylon are fulfilled, I will turn my attention to you, and I will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.’

So Daniel prayed to Jehovah after realizing what Jeremiah wrote about that prophecy, and finished his prayer saying:

Dan. 9:17 And now listen, O our God, to the prayer of your servant and to his entreaties, and cause your face to shine upon your sanctuary that is desolate, for your own sake, O Jehovah. 18 Incline your ear, O my God, and hear! Do open your eyes and see our desolate condition and the city that has been called by your name; for we are not entreating you because of our righteous acts but because of your great mercy. 19 O Jehovah, do hear. O Jehovah, do forgive. O Jehovah, do pay attention and act! Do not delay, for your own sake, O my God, for your own name has been called upon your city and upon your people.

I don't know what the purpose of all that circus you're putting together is...

You can read the same book on the Bible, under the same name "Jeremiah". Even Ezra after the exile read the same book:

Ezra 1:1 In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia, in order that Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah would be fulfilled, Jehovah stirred the spirit of King Cyrus of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his kingdom, which he also put in writing (...)

[JoeyKnothead]

...
PS: For other forumers:
...

We interrupt this message for an important announcement for, I reckon, other forumers...

Our claimant here has presented, in the OP...

For example, at the time that Daniel was living in Babylon, he was holding in his hands part of the book that Jeremiah had written some years earlier. This process of writing to join with what has already been written continued throughout the time that the Bible was being completed until it was what we know today.

Notice I've challenged our claimant on this alleged part of this book. It's presented as some form of evidence that biblical tales, or at least Eloi's tales can be trusted.

However, Eloi has ignored my dogged efforts to get Eloi to provide this book for examination (...)

Since In saw your post asking for that I answered you ...

Dan. 9:1 In the first year of Da·riʹus the son of Ahasuerus—a descendant of the Medes who had been made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans— 2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of years mentioned in the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet to fulfill the desolation of Jerusalem, namely, 70 years. 3 So I turned my face to Jehovah the true God, entreating him in prayer, along with fasting and sackcloth and ashes.

Daniel was reading probably this sections of the book written by Jeremiah about 7 decades before:

Jer. 25:11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.
... 29:10 For this is what Jehovah says, ‘When 70 years at Babylon are fulfilled, I will turn my attention to you, and I will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.’

So Daniel prayed to Jehovah after realizing what Jeremiah wrote about that prophecy, and finished his prayer saying:

Dan. 9:17 And now listen, O our God, to the prayer of your servant and to his entreaties, and cause your face to shine upon your sanctuary that is desolate, for your own sake, O Jehovah. 18 Incline your ear, O my God, and hear! Do open your eyes and see our desolate condition and the city that has been called by your name; for we are not entreating you because of our righteous acts but because of your great mercy. 19 O Jehovah, do hear. O Jehovah, do forgive. O Jehovah, do pay attention and act! Do not delay, for your own sake, O my God, for your own name has been called upon your city and upon your people.

I don't know what the purpose of all that circus you're putting together is...

You can read the same book on the Bible, under the same name "Jeremiah". Even Ezra after the exile read the same book:

Ezra 1:1 In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia, in order that Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah would be fulfilled, Jehovah stirred the spirit of King Cyrus of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his kingdom, which he also put in writing (...)

So you can't present the book in question?

All claims and conclusions regarding an absent piece of evidence are speculation, at best.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
PS: For other forumers:
...

We interrupt this message for an important announcement for, I reckon, other forumers...

Our claimant here has presented, in the OP...

For example, at the time that Daniel was living in Babylon, he was holding in his hands part of the book that Jeremiah had written some years earlier. This process of writing to join with what has already been written continued throughout the time that the Bible was being completed until it was what we know today.

Notice I've challenged our claimant on this alleged part of this book. It's presented as some form of evidence that biblical tales, or at least Eloi's tales can be trusted.

However, Eloi has ignored my dogged efforts to get Eloi to provide this book for examination (...)

Since In saw your post asking for that I answered you ...

Dan. 9:1 In the first year of Da·riʹus the son of Ahasuerus—a descendant of the Medes who had been made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans— 2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of years mentioned in the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet to fulfill the desolation of Jerusalem, namely, 70 years. 3 So I turned my face to Jehovah the true God, entreating him in prayer, along with fasting and sackcloth and ashes.

Daniel was reading probably this sections of the book written by Jeremiah about 7 decades before:

Jer. 25:11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.
... 29:10 For this is what Jehovah says, ‘When 70 years at Babylon are fulfilled, I will turn my attention to you, and I will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.’

So Daniel prayed to Jehovah after realizing what Jeremiah wrote about that prophecy, and finished his prayer saying:

Dan. 9:17 And now listen, O our God, to the prayer of your servant and to his entreaties, and cause your face to shine upon your sanctuary that is desolate, for your own sake, O Jehovah. 18 Incline your ear, O my God, and hear! Do open your eyes and see our desolate condition and the city that has been called by your name; for we are not entreating you because of our righteous acts but because of your great mercy. 19 O Jehovah, do hear. O Jehovah, do forgive. O Jehovah, do pay attention and act! Do not delay, for your own sake, O my God, for your own name has been called upon your city and upon your people.

I don't know what the purpose of all that circus you're putting together is...

You can read the same book on the Bible, under the same name "Jeremiah". Even Ezra after the exile read the same book:

Ezra 1:1 In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia, in order that Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah would be fulfilled, Jehovah stirred the spirit of King Cyrus of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his kingdom, which he also put in writing (...)

I'm not sure who is saying what, but I did have a look for Daniel in my old papers and notes and online (though By God it's all proving Daniel as prophecy swamping the net and it's hard to find the Other side). But I did get the date -164 B.C; that's when it was written, as the history matched the prophecy until then, when the prophecy goes wrong and thereafter diffuses into fantasies about a perfect reign and stars falling. Together with the somewhat wonky account of the fall of Babylon and I'm sure what we have here is pointing to a zealot polemic about how God destroyed the Babylonians who conquered the Jews, so casting the history of the Ptolemaic wars as Prophecy written in 5th c BC they could pretend that the prophecied end of the Seleucids was a promised prophecy. Now, Seleucus didn't end that way but the Maccabees did win and I'm sure you won't find any Jewish expert who credits the fiddled figures to make Jesus the Messiah 'cut off'. If we set him in the prophetical history context it turns out to be High priest Onias III deleted by the Seleucid monarch. Nothing to do with Jesus.

There were a lot of Bible apologist attempts to fiddle excuses but they were all very partial and slanted as one might expect from Christian thinktanks. e.g 'if it was false prophecy, why would it become Jewish canon?'

Because the revolt succeeded and the fantasy future could be put off to later or treated as metaphor; and if there were an error or two, ignore that as it actually came true.

another one...Daniel is in the Qumran scrolls. If it was as late as 164, BC why would it be 'canonical' enough to be copied into the Qumran scrolls?

Because it prophecies revolt and messiah and that was uppermost in Jewish thought when the scrolls were hidden. The Maccabeans had Failed, Rome ruled Judea and the Jews were seething for revolt. Thus Daniel took on a whole new relevance as the Jewish war was about to break out.

I do not buy the 'Essene' argument. Qumran might have been founded by Essenes, but I reckon it was occupied by zealots who hid their rather warlike and eschatological religious tracts in the cave before the Roman attack which can be seen in the archaeology, and it is ignored or glossed over why Romans would waste time assaulting a peaceful Essene monastery.

Anyway, that's my 2c and may be worth no more, but I'll try to find a better explanation of matching prophecy to history.