How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

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How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

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How do we know what is right, and what is wrong? For example, I think it is wrong to be a herbivore or a carnivore or an omnivore, or a parasite. I think all living things should be autotrophs. I think only autotrophs are good and the rest are evil. However, I am not certain that my thoughts are right. Can herbivores, carnivores, omnivores, and parasites become autotrophs at will? If so, why don't they? If they can't become autotrophs at will, is it really their fault that they are not autotrophs?

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Re: How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

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Post by The Tanager »

Compassionist wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:26 pmJust because we can't predict with 100% accuracy, who will do what does not mean that the choices are not determined by genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, and the laws of physics. We can't predict the weather with 100% accuracy either. That does not mean that the weather is not determined by variables and the laws of physics.

I wish there was a way to know with 100% certainty what is real and what is not as I find it very frustrating that I can't know. I hate not being able to prevent all suffering, injustices, and deaths and not being able to make all living things forever happy.

I don't think we are going to agree and that's ok. I don't require anyone to agree with me. Thank you for all your thoughtful replies. I wish you all the best.
I wasn't saying a lack of 100% prediction proves determinism wrong. The argument offered for determinism was that we are getting more knowledgeable and so we may one day get to 100% prediction. I was saying this faithful thinking wasn't good enough to support thinking determinism is true, ultimately resting on begging the question.

I would also love more certainty in my life as well, but it's not a part of our life as humans. I don't think that lack is necessarily evil.

I also wish no evil occurred, including "small" self-centered evils I commit. That is, until I think about that the only way I could accomplish this was to turn everyone (including myself) into puppets and all the great love we would be missing out on by doing so.

Yes, disagreeing is okay. May we both continue to pursue truth and move closer to it, though. May peace be yours.

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Re: How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

Post #112

Post by Compassionist »

The Tanager wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:13 pm
Compassionist wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:26 pmJust because we can't predict with 100% accuracy, who will do what does not mean that the choices are not determined by genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, and the laws of physics. We can't predict the weather with 100% accuracy either. That does not mean that the weather is not determined by variables and the laws of physics.

I wish there was a way to know with 100% certainty what is real and what is not as I find it very frustrating that I can't know. I hate not being able to prevent all suffering, injustices, and deaths and not being able to make all living things forever happy.

I don't think we are going to agree and that's ok. I don't require anyone to agree with me. Thank you for all your thoughtful replies. I wish you all the best.
I wasn't saying a lack of 100% prediction proves determinism wrong. The argument offered for determinism was that we are getting more knowledgeable and so we may one day get to 100% prediction. I was saying this faithful thinking wasn't good enough to support thinking determinism is true, ultimately resting on begging the question.

I would also love more certainty in my life as well, but it's not a part of our life as humans. I don't think that lack is necessarily evil.

I also wish no evil occurred, including "small" self-centered evils I commit. That is, until I think about that the only way I could accomplish this was to turn everyone (including myself) into puppets and all the great love we would be missing out on by doing so.

Yes, disagreeing is okay. May we both continue to pursue truth and move closer to it, though. May peace be yours.
The reason we can't predict choices made by complex organisms is the same as why we can't predict the weather. There are too many variables for us to compute. It does not mean that our choices are not determined by our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, as well as by the laws of physics.

Are you saying that God is a puppet because he is all-knowing and all-powerful? I proposed in other posts that God should have made all living things all-knowing and all-powerful as that would have led to everyone being forever happy. Nothing and no one can harm all-knowing and all-powerful beings.

You claimed in another post that killing sentient beings for food is not unjust. On what basis is this not unjust?

I have asked you in several other posts whether or not you have looked at https://www.evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com but you never said if you had looked at them or not. You don't have to look at them if you don't want to. If you did look at them what do you think of them?

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Re: How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

Post #113

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Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:24 amThe reason we can't predict choices made by complex organisms is the same as why we can't predict the weather. There are too many variables for us to compute. It does not mean that our choices are not determined by our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, as well as by the laws of physics.
I didn’t say it means determinism is false. I said it doesn’t prove determinism and to have faith that we one day will be able to is to beg the question because if determinism is not true, then we wouldn’t be able to predict it all even in theory.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:24 amAre you saying that God is a puppet because he is all-knowing and all-powerful? I proposed in other posts that God should have made all living things all-knowing and all-powerful as that would have led to everyone being forever happy. Nothing and no one can harm all-knowing and all-powerful beings.
No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying that for God to make sure no one does anything evil, God would have to make us puppets.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:24 amYou claimed in another post that killing sentient beings for food is not unjust. On what basis is this not unjust?
No, you claimed that this was unjust and I asked for the basis on which you were making that claim. You said because it was harmful. I asked on what basis causing harm is necessarily unjust.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:24 amI have asked you in several other posts whether or not you have looked at https://www.evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com but you never said if you had looked at them or not. You don't have to look at them if you don't want to. If you did look at them what do you think of them?
I have said in those posts that I have looked at them. I believe I even said that most of those are the result of misinterpretations of the texts and even what kind of texts they are. That's obviously a generalization, but I'm always open to looking at specifics.

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Re: How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

Post #114

Post by Compassionist »

The Tanager wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:04 am
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:24 amThe reason we can't predict choices made by complex organisms is the same as why we can't predict the weather. There are too many variables for us to compute. It does not mean that our choices are not determined by our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, as well as by the laws of physics.
I didn’t say it means determinism is false. I said it doesn’t prove determinism and to have faith that we one day will be able to is to beg the question because if determinism is not true, then we wouldn’t be able to predict it all even in theory.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:24 amAre you saying that God is a puppet because he is all-knowing and all-powerful? I proposed in other posts that God should have made all living things all-knowing and all-powerful as that would have led to everyone being forever happy. Nothing and no one can harm all-knowing and all-powerful beings.
No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying that for God to make sure no one does anything evil, God would have to make us puppets.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:24 amYou claimed in another post that killing sentient beings for food is not unjust. On what basis is this not unjust?
No, you claimed that this was unjust and I asked for the basis on which you were making that claim. You said because it was harmful. I asked on what basis causing harm is necessarily unjust.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:24 amI have asked you in several other posts whether or not you have looked at https://www.evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com but you never said if you had looked at them or not. You don't have to look at them if you don't want to. If you did look at them what do you think of them?
I have said in those posts that I have looked at them. I believe I even said that most of those are the result of misinterpretations of the texts and even what kind of texts they are. That's obviously a generalization, but I'm always open to looking at specifics.
Some things can be proven if one assumes that our sensory perceptions are not being doctored by simulations or illusions. For example, I can prove that humans with XY chromosomes are males and XX chromosomes are females. I can also prove that if you deprive me of oxygen, water and food, I will die. I can also prove that if you put me in an oven and set it to 200 degrees Celsius and switch it on, I will die. I can also prove that if I experience something it affects my choices e.g. I put on a coat if I feel cold.

In the examples above, I prove that genes (XY and XX chromosomes), environments (200 degrees Celsius oven), nutrients (lack of oxygen, water and food), and experiences (being cold) determine what happens.

Here are some things that I desperately want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:

1. Go back in time and prevent all suffering, deaths, and injustices.
2. Make all living things all-knowing and all-powerful. This way no one will ever be harmed by anyone or anything. If God is truly all-knowing and all-powerful, why didn't he make all beings equally all-knowing and all-powerful?

Here are some things I have done, currently do or will do even though I don't want to do them:

1. Breathe
2. Eat
3. Drink
4. Sleep
5. Dream
7. Pee
8. Poo
9. Fart
10. Burp
11. Sneeze
12. Cough
13. Age
14. Get ill
15. Get injured
16. Sweat
17. Cry
18. Suffer
19. Snore
20. Think
21. Feel
22. Choose
23. Be conceived
24. Be born
25. Remember some events
26. Forget some events
27. Die

I am clearly not a free agent with free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. We are all prisoners of causality who are thrust into existence without consent in a horrific and unjust world. I wish I was never conceived but I can't choose to prevent my existence. Can you refrain from the 27 items on the list above? I bet you can't. No human can refrain from these things because we are all prisoners of causality and doomed to suffer and die.

Please see https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-ho ... the-bible/ and https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/slavery/ and https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-ho ... the-bible/

Do you truly not find the above examples to be atrocious? Only an evil God could commit such acts and give such commands.

Please see viewtopic.php?p=1114770#p1114770

I am quoting from your post:
The Tanager wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:15 pm
Compassionist wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 11:50 amI don't understand how you can be a non-vegan while you think that one should get upset about injustice. The exploitation and murder of sentient organisms are among the worst injustices in the universe.
It’s because I don’t see carnivorism as an injustice. I could be wrong about that, unless atheism is true. Therefore, I don’t understand what you mean by injustice. If atheism is true (I know you are agnostic), then there is no such thing as injustice; there are only things that go against your taste and go with a being that has a different taste.
Compassionist wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 11:50 amI already said that both theism and atheism provide subjective morality. Religions can not and do not provide us with objective morality.
It may be true that theism cannot provide us with objective morality either, but we are tabling that question until we are done with this part. We are just talking about the atheism side of things. And, on that side, I don’t see how “injustice” exists as a concept in the way you are using it.
Why don't you see carnivorism as an injustice? I disagree with your claim that atheism being true nullifies the existence of injustice. I bet lots of agnostics and atheists and even theists would agree with me in that justice and injustice can exist regardless of whether atheism is true or false.

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Re: How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

Post #115

Post by The Tanager »

Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:56 pmSome things can be proven if one assumes that our sensory perceptions are not being doctored by simulations or illusions. For example, I can prove that humans with XY chromosomes are males and XX chromosomes are females. I can also prove that if you deprive me of oxygen, water and food, I will die. I can also prove that if you put me in an oven and set it to 200 degrees Celsius and switch it on, I will die. I can also prove that if I experience something it affects my choices e.g. I put on a coat if I feel cold.

In the examples above, I prove that genes (XY and XX chromosomes), environments (200 degrees Celsius oven), nutrients (lack of oxygen, water and food), and experiences (being cold) determine what happens.
Bolded emphasis mine. You did not prove that experiences determine what happens. You moved from saying experiences affect to experiences determine. You don’t have to put a coat on.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:56 pmHere are some things that I desperately want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:
Doing those things is not what free will is in the free will vs. determinism debate that has thousands of years of philosophy behind it, so this does nothing to prove determinism.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:56 pmIf God is truly all-knowing and all-powerful, why didn't he make all beings equally all-knowing and all-powerful?
Why should God?
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:56 pmPlease see https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-ho ... the-bible/ and https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/slavery/ and https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-ho ... the-bible/

Do you truly not find the above examples to be atrocious? Only an evil God could commit such acts and give such commands.
Those are too many things that all deserve responses to. They deserve their own thread. I would be happy to join you in such a thread. For this discussion, let’s assume that at least some of those critiques are solid. What would that show? It would show that the Bible is not all inspired. It would not show that atheism is true, that Christianity is false, or that God cannot ground objective morality.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:56 pmWhy don't you see carnivorism as an injustice?
Again, you claimed it was a clear injustice. It is your burden to support that rationally. So, why do you think it is an objective injustice?

I don’t think that causing pain is, in itself, necessarily evil. I don’t make all parenting decisions with my kids’ comfort in mind; I’m more concerned about their character. It may be the case that our type of world requires the existence of pain, both for us and for other creatures.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:56 pmI disagree with your claim that atheism being true nullifies the existence of injustice. I bet lots of agnostics and atheists and even theists would agree with me in that justice and injustice can exist regardless of whether atheism is true or false.
People agree for all sorts of reasons, not always rational. Can you offer any grounding of objective morals, assuming the truth of atheism?

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Re: How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

Post #116

Post by Compassionist »

The Tanager wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:38 pm
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:56 pmSome things can be proven if one assumes that our sensory perceptions are not being doctored by simulations or illusions. For example, I can prove that humans with XY chromosomes are males and XX chromosomes are females. I can also prove that if you deprive me of oxygen, water and food, I will die. I can also prove that if you put me in an oven and set it to 200 degrees Celsius and switch it on, I will die. I can also prove that if I experience something it affects my choices e.g. I put on a coat if I feel cold.

In the examples above, I prove that genes (XY and XX chromosomes), environments (200 degrees Celsius oven), nutrients (lack of oxygen, water and food), and experiences (being cold) determine what happens.
Bolded emphasis mine. You did not prove that experiences determine what happens. You moved from saying experiences affect to experiences determine. You don’t have to put a coat on.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:56 pmHere are some things that I desperately want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:
Doing those things is not what free will is in the free will vs. determinism debate that has thousands of years of philosophy behind it, so this does nothing to prove determinism.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:56 pmIf God is truly all-knowing and all-powerful, why didn't he make all beings equally all-knowing and all-powerful?
Why should God?
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:56 pmPlease see https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-ho ... the-bible/ and https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/slavery/ and https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-ho ... the-bible/

Do you truly not find the above examples to be atrocious? Only an evil God could commit such acts and give such commands.
Those are too many things that all deserve responses to. They deserve their own thread. I would be happy to join you in such a thread. For this discussion, let’s assume that at least some of those critiques are solid. What would that show? It would show that the Bible is not all inspired. It would not show that atheism is true, that Christianity is false, or that God cannot ground objective morality.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:56 pmWhy don't you see carnivorism as an injustice?
Again, you claimed it was a clear injustice. It is your burden to support that rationally. So, why do you think it is an objective injustice?

I don’t think that causing pain is, in itself, necessarily evil. I don’t make all parenting decisions with my kids’ comfort in mind; I’m more concerned about their character. It may be the case that our type of world requires the existence of pain, both for us and for other creatures.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:56 pmI disagree with your claim that atheism being true nullifies the existence of injustice. I bet lots of agnostics and atheists and even theists would agree with me in that justice and injustice can exist regardless of whether atheism is true or false.
People agree for all sorts of reasons, not always rational. Can you offer any grounding of objective morals, assuming the truth of atheism?
Yes, I could put the heating on instead of putting the coat on but that would cost extra money which I don't have.

God should have made all beings all-knowing and all-powerful because no one and nothing can harm them.

There is no such thing as objective morality. All knowledge and morality are subjective. I have said that many times. We go round and round the same circles so I am just going to stop.

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Re: How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

Post #117

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The Tanager wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:15 pm By “objective” I mean “independent of people’s (including one’s own) opinion”. Technically, they could be changing, although I’m not sure which theories would truly lead to changing objective values. They would be real, non-subjective, binding on moral agents (which at least includes humans).
Why do you exclude God? Is God not a person? How do you know God doesn't change his mind, or change at all? Because if you have no proof of this, then you'd be appealing to something in the Universe that maintains morals as Objective.

Please don't tell me your religion claims God is unchanging, because you can see how that isn't rational, reasonable or logical. Give us a logical argument for why a God would be unchanging, especially one that at some point, decided to act to create the Universe, resurrect Jesus, etc.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

Post #118

Post by The Tanager »

Compassionist wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:30 amYes, I could put the heating on instead of putting the coat on but that would cost extra money which I don't have.
You could also just be cold. I’ve done it before; it hasn’t cost me any extra money to do so.

So, to sum up where we stand on this part of our discussion: You still haven’t proven determinism. You also still haven’t justified your exclusion of limited free will from one of three logically possible options (determinism, limited free will, and complete free will) available to us.
Compassionist wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:30 amGod should have made all beings all-knowing and all-powerful because no one and nothing can harm them.
You keep saying this and I keep responding, to which you just keep repeating this. I’m trying to move the discussion forward. Why should God avoid all possible harm, even if we aren’t all-knowing and all-powerful?
Compassionist wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:30 amThere is no such thing as objective morality. All knowledge and morality are subjective. I have said that many times. We go round and round the same circles so I am just going to stop.
I’m trying to move the discussion forward, but instead of responding to my reasoning, you just keep repeating this. You have offered no valid feature within an atheistic reality that would objectively ground morals to where something could rightly be called an injustice (unless you are prepared to say that someone eating a vegan flavor of ice cream you dislike is just as much an injustice). I have offered God’s purpose and design as that objective grounding within a theistic reality and you haven’t offered a response against that.

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Re: How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

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boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:32 amWhy do you exclude God? Is God not a person? How do you know God doesn't change his mind, or change at all? Because if you have no proof of this, then you'd be appealing to something in the Universe that maintains morals as Objective.

Please don't tell me your religion claims God is unchanging, because you can see how that isn't rational, reasonable or logical. Give us a logical argument for why a God would be unchanging, especially one that at some point, decided to act to create the Universe, resurrect Jesus, etc.
We are discussing the objectivity of human morality, are we not? Therefore, objective would mean “independent of [human] people’s (including one’s own) opinion.” This means that the source must come outside of our own opinions, but that doesn’t mean that anything outside of our own opinions will suffice. A raccoon’s opinion is outside of human opinions, but they aren’t responsible for the design and purpose of humans, so they can’t objectively ground human morality. God, as our creator, would be both outside human opinions on the subject, as well as responsible for the design and purpose of humans.

On your third question, I haven’t said God doesn’t change God’s mind. But, since I’ve grounded human morality objectively in our design and purpose, even if God changed God’s mind, what is objectively moral for us would not change unless God changed our design and purpose along with that. I’m not aware of many atheistic or theistic theories that posit changing objective morals, but theoretically, it seems possible to me, so I wasn’t ruling it out in answer to your question about that.

As to the other things I’ve asked you about, do you have any further thoughts:

(1) What feature within atheism would objectively ground morals? If you are still going to say “harm,” then support why harm is objectively bad instead of just restating that it is.

(2) What is your support for your second premise: “There is no God and Objective morals exist”?

(3) Why does a lack of consensus on philosophical matters mean something important beyond that there isn’t a consensus?

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Re: How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

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Post by boatsnguitars »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:42 pm
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:32 amWhy do you exclude God? Is God not a person? How do you know God doesn't change his mind, or change at all? Because if you have no proof of this, then you'd be appealing to something in the Universe that maintains morals as Objective.

Please don't tell me your religion claims God is unchanging, because you can see how that isn't rational, reasonable or logical. Give us a logical argument for why a God would be unchanging, especially one that at some point, decided to act to create the Universe, resurrect Jesus, etc.
We are discussing the objectivity of human morality, are we not? Therefore, objective would mean “independent of [human] people’s (including one’s own) opinion.” This means that the source must come outside of our own opinions, but that doesn’t mean that anything outside of our own opinions will suffice. A raccoon’s opinion is outside of human opinions, but they aren’t responsible for the design and purpose of humans, so they can’t objectively ground human morality. God, as our creator, would be both outside human opinions on the subject, as well as responsible for the design and purpose of humans.
We are discussing morality as a fixed, objective, absolute concept, no? You have moved the goal posts. You now seem to say that there are morals for some, not for others. That it's contextual. It's fine for God to Murder, but not people?
No, I'm going reject this direction.
Moral Philosophers talk about Personhood, that is, Morality applies to those who can understand Morality. The Moral Agent.
Raccoon's don't have the ability to recognize the full breadth and depth of human interaction, therefore, they are not Moral Agents. However, as opposed to WLC's claim, animals (especially social mammals) exhibit the beginnnnings of moral behavior. Raccoon's can understand that getting in a fight (harming) can lead to retaliation and harm to itself. Isn't this why we don't act immorally? To avoid harm to ourselves? Harm to our family? Harm to our community? Harm to others, the world, or even animals?
Why do we have a moral duty to care for the environment? Because it would harm us, and harm, generally, is "bad". you might claim it's due to our purpose, but again, you haven't established this "purpose" exists.
On your third question, I haven’t said God doesn’t change God’s mind. But, since I’ve grounded human morality objectively in our design and purpose, even if God changed God’s mind, what is objectively moral for us would not change unless God changed our design and purpose along with that. I’m not aware of many atheistic or theistic theories that posit changing objective morals, but theoretically, it seems possible to me, so I wasn’t ruling it out in answer to your question about that.
1. I'm not sure how you've grounded human morality in our design and purpose, since you haven't established we have design or purpose, or that there is a God.
I have, on the other hand, established that people can harm and get harmed - and that humans are Moral Agents. You are forced to admit I have given you proof that the things that make up morality (under atheism) actually exist.
2. If Morals are grounded in God, and God is a Person, then it is - by definition - Subjective. If you are going to claim that Morals transcend God, make that case. And, perhaps, give your answer to the Euthyphro's Dilemma.
3. Can you name one Moral Value that you can show is Universal, Objective and confirmed to be so? Then, can you confirm that God agrees?
As to the other things I’ve asked you about, do you have any further thoughts:

(1) What feature within atheism would objectively ground morals? If you are still going to say “harm,” then support why harm is objectively bad instead of just restating that it is.
But, that's it. What else are you looking for? This isn't rocket surgery. The basic premise would be Chaos is opposed to Order. Chaos "harms" Order. If the Universe has any "purpose" it is to exist against the forces of Chaos. Therefore, built into the Universe is a preference for Order, not Chaos (harm).
Does this exist without a Universe? No, other than a Platonic Ideal.
And, as I said, I am not in favor of this view.
This is why I prefer my view on Moral Values, as they are real, and meaningful to us. Objective Morals "out there" (in the Universe, or in God's Mind) are not accessible to us. It's just a convenient way for clergy to say that God hates the things they hate, and they can control people. (For example, why are witches or gay people Objectively bad (if you believe the Bible)? Because it appears that any reason you give might not be true, it might just be that "God says so", which puts you in the horns of the Euthyphro Dilemma)
(2) What is your support for your second premise: “There is no God and Objective morals exist”?
There is no evidence. "Unicorn racing pixies have stolen my time machine, and that's why I couldn't get to Middle Earth?"
Do unicorns, pixies, time machines, or Middle Earth exist?
Just because you can say the word, doesn't mean they exist.
Honestly, at some point Theists have to realize the futility of their 10,000's years of trying to argue for God's existence. You'd think it would be the most obvious thing in the world by now.
(3) Why does a lack of consensus on philosophical matters mean something important beyond that there isn’t a consensus?
I've told you repeatedly. A lack of consensus from people who study this for a living, at a depth that you and I would get lost in the first 5 minutes, means the answer isn't something you can blithely decide for yourself because of how you feel.

Let's try to get this through to you.

Scholars debate whether 1 Corinthians was written as early as 50CE or as late as 60CE.

Can I say it's 60CE as fact, or should I recognize the debate among scholars who study this for a living and reserve judgment?



(And, further, I say "should", meaning do I have some moral reason to? Because if I was a preacher who wanted to claim the book was written in 50CE for some theological point, I could, right? Because according to Theists, what is moral is what God wants - and if God wants a Theological point made, despite facts, then it's moral. After all, Jesus often lied for God, so it must be moral. Objectively moral. And - if you say, "No, Jesus never lied, they were parables, and God doesn't want people to lie for Him." Then prove it. That's the problem with your Morality. It's why Christians really suck at moral theory.).
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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