HOW IS CHRIST THE FIRST BEGOTTEN FROM AMONG THE DEAD?

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Eddie Ramos
Scholar
Posts: 410
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:30 pm
Location: USA
Been thanked: 34 times
Contact:

HOW IS CHRIST THE FIRST BEGOTTEN FROM AMONG THE DEAD?

Post #1

Post by Eddie Ramos »

If we look at all the people in the Bible who were ever brought to physical life after dying physically, then there were a total of six people who were raised to life before Christ himself was raised in 33 A.D. That would make Christ the 7th begotten from among the dead, would it not? Well, here is a list of all those who were raised before Christ:

The widow's son of Zarepath (1 Kings 17:17-24) Raised by Elijah
The Shunamite's son (2 Kings 4:20-37) Raised by Elisha
The man tossed into Elisha's tomb (2 Kings 13:21) Raised by the bones of Elisha
The widow's son of Nain (Luke 7:11-16) Raised by Jesus
Jarius' 12 year old daughter (Mark 5:35-43) Raised by Jesus
Lazarus (John 11:1-44) Raised by Jesus

This presents a problem for us if were looking to the time of the cross as the only time Jesus died and rose again. But when we can see that Jesus died and rose again from the foundation of the world, to pay for sins, then the statement made in Revelation 1:5 harmonizes perfectly with the scriptures as a whole when it declares that Christ was indeed the first begotten from among the dead. And because Christ was indeed the first to die and raise again, then this also agrees with the passage that tells us that he has preeminence in all things.

Colossians 1:18 (KJV 1900)
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence (be first).


For those who disagree that Christ died and rose before the world began, the topic of debate is to show from the scriptures how Christ is the first begotten from the dead when he was actually the 7th, if you're looking to the time of the cross as the only time he died and rose again.

User avatar
Eddie Ramos
Scholar
Posts: 410
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:30 pm
Location: USA
Been thanked: 34 times
Contact:

Re: HOW IS CHRIST THE FIRST BEGOTTEN FROM AMONG THE DEAD?

Post #11

Post by Eddie Ramos »

onewithhim wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:19 pm [Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #5]

Elijah didn't go to the spiritual realm of heaven. He merely went up into the atmosphere where the birds fly, off to another assignment. Another few years and he is still alive and active as a prophet. He told King Jehoram of Judah that he was condemned by Jehovah. (2Chronicles 21:12-15)
I hate to keep telling you that you're incorrect, but the Bible just does not agree with you. I feel it may be because the WTS has specific beliefs that they must hold, regardless of the contradictions they hold on to, which resulted in the development of their own Bible which they could alter to better suit their beliefs. Elijah most certainly wasn't taken into the sky but into the heavens (plural) as this typified Christ ascending up to heaven and Elisha typified the elect children of God who were left behind to continue to preach the Word of God.

But even historically your statement is inaccurate. Fist we have to understand that there were 2 kings named JEHORAM whose reign was simultaneous for a time. There was Jehoram, king of Judah, the son of Jehoshaphat and there was Jehoram, king of Israel who began to reign two years after Jehoram king of Judah was already reigning.

2 Kings 1:17 (KJV 1900)
So he (king Ahaziah) died according to the word of the LORD which Elijah had spoken. And Jehoram reigned in his stead in the second year of Jehoram the son of Jehoshaphat king of Judah; because he had no son.


Now, the passage you quoted in 2 Chron 21:12-15 is about the Jehoram, which was the king of Judah. It was this same king that was reigning for 2 years already even before Elijah was taken up. Then the next verse tells us that some more time had passed after the second year of Jehoram's reign before Elijah was taken up.

2 Kings 2:1 (KJV 1900)
And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.


This means that Elijah was still on earth when he sent the letter because Jehoram was already reigning for at least 2 years before Elijah was taken up.

2 Chronicles 21:12 (KJV 1900)
And there came a writing to him (to Jehoram, king of Judah) from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,


I hope this helps.

User avatar
Eddie Ramos
Scholar
Posts: 410
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:30 pm
Location: USA
Been thanked: 34 times
Contact:

Re: HOW IS CHRIST THE FIRST BEGOTTEN FROM AMONG THE DEAD?

Post #12

Post by Eddie Ramos »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:44 pm Christ was the firstborn from te dead in that he was the first to be raised to IMMORTALITY. The first human to be raised to immortal spirit life.
JW
I completely agree, but not if you're looking to the time of the cross as the time when Christ was raised to immortality. Because if you are, then the Bible will contradict you. Enoch, would then have been the first, then Moses, then Elijah. This is God's way of telling us that we are looking to the wrong time period when Christ became the first to rise, body and soul, from the dead. But if we look to the foundation of the world (before the world began), then there's perfect harmony with the scriptures as a whole. And harmony (biblical agreement) is God's way of teaching us that we are on the right track.

User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

Re: HOW IS CHRIST THE FIRST BEGOTTEN FROM AMONG THE DEAD?

Post #13

Post by Miles »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:43 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:02 am
Eddie Ramos wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:58 pm
Miles wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:31 pm Aside from the example of Mark 5:35-43 where Jesus told the people "The child has not died, but is sleeping." I think you have a good point. There are five instances were the Bible says people were brought back from the dead, all of which predated Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection, which makes Colossians 1:18 false.
Jesus uses "sleeping" as a synonym for being dead.
So when Jesus said "The child has not died, but is sleeping." what he was really saying is "The child has not died, but is dead." And this makes sense to you?
It makes perfect sense, but not the way you describe it.
I described it exactly as you said, using "sleeping" as a synonym for being dead. And that's how it had to read with "dead" standing in for "sleeping."

"The child has not died, but is sleeping."
"The child has not died, but is dead."

You should not forget the principle that Jesus did not speak without parables.
And you should not forget the fact that this is not true. If it is true then what are the parables in the following statements spoken by Jesus?

Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matt. 3;17

Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” Matt. 9:2

Follow me.” Matt. 9:9

Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping.” Matt. 9:24

See that no one knows about it.” Matt. 9:30

They need not go away; you give them something to eat." 18“ Bring them here to me..” Matt.14:16,18

Miles wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:02 am
That's only if you look to the time of the cross as the only time Christ died and rose again, which would contradict Colossians 1:18 as you stated. But because Christ died and rose again before the world began, Colossians 1:18 harmonizes perfectly, and the six who died and rose again, were not before Christ, but after him, making Christ the first in all things.

Where is it said that Jesus died and rose again before the world began? AND, where was he when he died?

.
Revelation 13:8 (KJV 1900)
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV 1900)
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works (necessary for salvation (rest)) were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 9:25–26 (KJV 1900)
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV 1900)
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in (meaning "through") Christ Jesus before the world began,


Revelation 1:5 (KJV 1900)
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


These passages are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to this understanding, as the whole of the scriptures testify to this in various forms (like historical parables).
But none of these verses answer my question "Where is it said that Jesus died
And............................................................. "where is it said that Jesus rose again "
And............................................................. "where is it said that these events took place before the world began?
And the Bible doesn't give us any information as to where he was where he died, because our creation was not in existence yet.
So what? Even if our creation was not in existence, Jesus had to have been somewhere, and god must have certainly been aware of Jesus's dying and rising, and would know where this all took place, and could have written this information in his Bible. Couldn't he? So, I don't see your "because" as explanatory at all.

.

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 7079
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 85 times
Contact:

Re: HOW IS CHRIST THE FIRST BEGOTTEN FROM AMONG THE DEAD?

Post #14

Post by myth-one.com »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:44 pm Christ was the firstborn from the dead in that he was the first to be raised to IMMORTALITY. The first human to be raised to immortal spirit life.
JW
Eddie Ramos then wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:26 pm I completely agree, . . .
Jesus Christ was born as a man, and it is appointed unto all mankind to die once:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

If every human is appointed once to die, then our first "death" cannot be avoided. So the wages for our sins cannot be our first appointed death. Indeed, our first death is typically referred to sleep, slumber, or rest in the scriptures.

The true wages for our sins is the second and everlasting death described in the Book of Revelation. Following the judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and quickly perish, never to live again:

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14-15)

<=========================================>

Jesus Christ's name is written in the Book of Life because He lived a sinless human life under the New Testament Covenant. He is the only human to ever accomplish this feat!

But if Christ was "raised to IMMORTALITY" as you guys claim, then He has already received His reward or inheritance for living a sinless life under the Old Testament -- and we have no savior as their is nothing left to give!!! So that is absolutely, totally false!

Notice that salvation under the New Testament Covenant is a gift of God through Jesus Christ:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

The "gift" which Jesus freely offers to those who believe in Him as their Savior is His inheritance of everlasting life which he duly earned under the Old Testament!

It is His to do with as He pleases. He owns that inheritance, and He is the only person to ever qualify for that inheritance -- "Who only hath immortality"

That is what will save us believers when the New Testament Covenant is probated at the Second Coming!

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

. . . the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)


Jesus will give His inheritance of everlasting life earned under the Old Testament to those humans who believe in Him as their Savior under the New Testament Covenant!

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: HOW IS CHRIST THE FIRST BEGOTTEN FROM AMONG THE DEAD?

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:19 pm
onewithhim wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:19 pm [Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #5]

Elijah didn't go to the spiritual realm of heaven. He merely went up into the atmosphere where the birds fly, off to another assignment. Another few years and he is still alive and active as a prophet. He told King Jehoram of Judah that he was condemned by Jehovah. (2Chronicles 21:12-15)
I hate to keep telling you that you're incorrect, but the Bible just does not agree with you.
It most certainly does.



DID ELIJAH DIE AND GO TO HEAVEN WHEN HE RODE THE FIREY CHARIOT?

No. After Elijah went up to heaven, Elisha his attendant helped Jehoshaphat in battle (see 2 Kings 3:14). Obviously then Jehoshaphat was still alive when Elijah went up into the sky*. When Jehoshaphat eventually dies and his son inherits the throne of Judah, Elijah is evidently still alive and kicking because according to 2 Chronicles 21:12-15 Elijah writes him a letter reprimanding Jehoram for his bad actions after his Fathers (Jehoshaphat) death. Thus Elijah couldnt have died and gone to be with God in heaven when he rode the firely chatiot.

Image
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: HOW IS CHRIST THE FIRST BEGOTTEN FROM AMONG THE DEAD?

Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

WHEN DID JEHORAM OF JUDAH REIGN?

Jehoram ruled for 8 years from 913 to 911. A number of those years being in association with his Father Jehoshaphat. Note the following ...
2 KINGS 8:16b

Image

... while Je·hosha·phat was king of Judah, Jehoram the son of King Je·hoshaphat of Judah became king
1 Kings 1:17 can be properly understood only in the light of 2 Kings 8 verse 16. It seems according to the latter that both Father and son reigned for a number of years together. Thus Jehoshaphat was evidenly still alive in the 2nd year of Jehoram of Judah. Elijah was taken up to "heaven" towards the end of king Jehosaphats reign (see post above).
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: HOW IS CHRIST THE FIRST BEGOTTEN FROM AMONG THE DEAD?

Post #17

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:26 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:44 pm Christ was the firstborn from te dead in that he was the first to be raised to IMMORTALITY. The first human to be raised to immortal spirit life.
JW
I completely agree, but not if you're looking to the time of the cross as the time when Christ was raised to immortality.
Obviously Jesus was raised to immortality after hus execution in the first century. If we take immortality to be life which cannot be extinguished, if Jesus was made immortal before that time He could not have died at all in the first century. Yet Jesus was quite clear on that point ...
MATTHEW 17:22, 23

It was while they were gathered together in Galʹi·lee that Jesus said to them: “The Son of man is going to be betrayed into men’s hands, and they will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised up.”
MATTHEW 16:21

From that time forward, Jesus began explaining to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed, and on the third day be raised up.”



RELATED POSTS
Did Jesus really die?
viewtopic.php?p=909895#p909895

How many times did Jesus die?
viewtopic.php?p=1114484#p1114484

How is Jesus the "firstborn from the dead"?
viewtopic.php?p=1115760#p1115760
To learn more please go to other posts related to

THE RANSOM SACRIFICE , THE EXECUTION OF CHRIST and ... MEMORIAL OF CHRIST'S DEATH
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: HOW IS CHRIST THE FIRST BEGOTTEN FROM AMONG THE DEAD?

Post #18

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #17]

Yes, and if he didn't really die at the 'cross,' we are still in our sins and up a creek without a paddle.

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 7079
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 85 times
Contact:

Re: HOW IS CHRIST THE FIRST BEGOTTEN FROM AMONG THE DEAD?

Post #19

Post by myth-one.com »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:13 am Obviously Jesus was raised to immortality after his execution in the first century.
onewithhim then wrote: Yes, and if he didn't really die at the 'cross,' we are still in our sins and up a creek without a paddle.
Following the Great White Throne Judgment, humans whose names are not written in the Book of Life must pay the wages for their sin by being cast into the lake of fire and quickly suffering their second and everlasting physical death.

That is the wages of mankind's sin.

No one has ever suffered their second death to this date. The second death is administered after their judgment, which begins a thousand years after the Second Coming.

Every human which ever lived has or will suffer their first death, as it is appointed until all mankind once to die.

Thus, Jesus' crucifixion was His appointed first death, not the wages for anyone's sins. All of us will die our first death.

But His first death made salvation of mankind possible by providing Jesus an inheritance of everlasting life under the Old Testament which He then wills to those humans who believe in Him under the New Testament Covenant.

Thus, salvation becomes a gift of God through Jesus Christ.

Oh well, you've both heard it before. Human sacrifice versus Love.

User avatar
MadJW
Student
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:12 pm
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: HOW IS CHRIST THE FIRST BEGOTTEN FROM AMONG THE DEAD?

Post #20

Post by MadJW »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:57 pm If we look at all the people in the Bible who were ever brought to physical life after dying physically, then there were a total of six people who were raised to life before Christ himself was raised in 33 A.D. That would make Christ the 7th begotten from among the dead, would it not? Well, here is a list of all those who were raised before Christ:

The widow's son of Zarepath (1 Kings 17:17-24) Raised by Elijah
The Shunamite's son (2 Kings 4:20-37) Raised by Elisha
The man tossed into Elisha's tomb (2 Kings 13:21) Raised by the bones of Elisha
The widow's son of Nain (Luke 7:11-16) Raised by Jesus
Jarius' 12 year old daughter (Mark 5:35-43) Raised by Jesus
Lazarus (John 11:1-44) Raised by Jesus

This presents a problem for us if were looking to the time of the cross as the only time Jesus died and rose again. But when we can see that Jesus died and rose again from the foundation of the world, to pay for sins, then the statement made in Revelation 1:5 harmonizes perfectly with the scriptures as a whole when it declares that Christ was indeed the first begotten from among the dead. And because Christ was indeed the first to die and raise again, then this also agrees with the passage that tells us that he has preeminence in all things.

Colossians 1:18 (KJV 1900)
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence (be first).


For those who disagree that Christ died and rose before the world began, the topic of debate is to show from the scriptures how Christ is the first begotten from the dead when he was actually the 7th, if you're looking to the time of the cross as the only time he died and rose again.
The previous ones eventually DIED- which is the penalty (not 'hellfire') of sin. So they were still under it's power.

Post Reply